OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

That is the place of the idealist, rather than the pragmatist? Many years ago I would, and did, share your views on a lot of these things rA, but have slowly come to realise that they have no traction in real life.

The pursuit of equality is a senseless pursuit, for it can never be achieved. All people have different skill sets, some of which are in greater demand than others: and are remunerated accordingly.

The skill sets applicable to the armed forces are an ability to die a death and happily kill other people, to do what you are told and to learn to do whatever you are told to do to carry out your job. For which you are remunerated sufficiently to be attracted to the role in sufficient numbers.

So the lives lost were not "unnecessary" but were a direct result of the individual knowingly accepting the risk, taking up the job and its risk premium enhanced remuneration. Nobody forced the individuals to take up that job and remuneration package (contrast the two world wars where conscription existed).

Every death is unfortunate, sad for all the relatives and friends etc, but when you voluntarily put yourself out there in that position, it's not unnecessary. One could almost argue that its disrespectful to those killed to describe what they were doing as unnecessary.

[ramAnag]

Personally I find Derbyshire a lot less strange than Brentford, AR.

Probably the most cynical post I’ve ever read on here, GP.
I’m not sure where the ‘pursuit of equality’ fits into it but your description of the ‘skill sets of the armed forces’ as being, ‘to die a death and happily kill others’ is nothing less than shocking.
I understand that there is a world of difference between ‘professional soldiers’ and those who were conscripted during the two World Wars and I’m with you on that.
I’ll even share your possible dismay at the concept of every serviceman being hailed a ‘Hero’, but they should surely not be simply regarded, as you seem to be suggesting, as either killing machines or cannon fodder to become tools of political expediency.

[Geoff Parkstone]

OK rA, I accept the allegation of cynicism. But tell me then, what is the modern army for save to kill or be killed in the nae of the realm?

[AngryRam]

Personally I find Derbyshire a lot less strange than Brentford, AR. .

Not Derbyshire, just your own little bubble.

[ramAnag]

Not Derbyshire, just your own little bubble.

Oh really! Sorry, forgot you need ‘joke alert’.

Not totally at odds with you GP...or your cynicism. I’d hope though that the armed forces amounted to more than kill or be killed and I certainly feel they should be worth more than that.
We live in increasingly harsh times but it is disturbing, even for one who shares much of your cynicism, to find someone as relatively intelligent as yourself being quite so blunt, outspoken and perhaps elitist as to describe the functions and ‘skill sets’ of the armed forces as ‘to die a death and happily kill others’.

[mistaram]

That is the place of the idealist, rather than the pragmatist? Many years ago I would, and did, share your views on a lot of these things rA, but have slowly come to realise that they have no traction in real life.

The pursuit of equality is a senseless pursuit, for it can never be achieved. All people have different skill sets, some of which are in greater demand than others: and are remunerated accordingly.

The skill sets applicable to the armed forces are an ability to die a death and happily kill other people, to do what you are told and to learn to do whatever you are told to do to carry out your job. For which you are remunerated sufficiently to be attracted to the role in sufficient numbers.

So the lives lost were not "unnecessary" but were a direct result of the individual knowingly accepting the risk, taking up the job and its risk premium enhanced remuneration. Nobody forced the individuals to take up that job and remuneration package (contrast the two world wars where conscription existed).

Every death is unfortunate, sad for all the relatives and friends etc, but when you voluntarily put yourself out there in that position, it's not unnecessary. One could almost argue that its disrespectful to those killed to describe what they were doing as unnecessary.

Lucky for you then Geoff that sufficient people have volunteered their lives so you can speak so freely But the 243,000 who died in two world wars didn't volunteer they were conscripted

[ramAnag]

Lucky for you then Geoff that sufficient people have volunteered their lives so you can speak so freely But the 243,000 who died in two world wars didn't volunteer they were conscripted

Tbf mista, I suspect Geoff would be the first to differentiate between conscripted and ‘professional’ soldiers.
It was also a great deal more than the quarter of a million you speak of who died in the two World Wars.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I did indeed differentiate between conscripts and professional in my original post

[Geoff Parkstone]

We live in increasingly harsh times but it is disturbing, even for one who shares much of your cynicism, to find someone as relatively intelligent as yourself being quite so blunt, outspoken and perhaps elitist as to describe the functions and ‘skill sets’ of the armed forces as ‘to die a death and happily kill others’.

I ask again then, what do you feel that the purpose of an army is other than as I defined? What have I missed here? Peace keeping is essentially minimising the deaths or injuries, predominantly on your side. Isn't everything else all about being prepared for the primary two functions?

Not sure how you could consider my views elitist - as noted already, the military forces are now volunteer, career oriented individuals. Not a career I would have chosen to pursue, but I don't look down on them for selecting that career path, quite the opposite if anything: they do something I wouldn't chose to do: kill and get killed. (and don't forget marching up and down the square - thankyou, Michael).

Maybe I'm just a good old fashioned pacifist, a conscie perhaps, in old money. But in an era where good old Uncle Don could start a global annihilation at the press of his finger, what does an army do?

[ramAnag]

Being prepared for the ‘primary two functions’ is rather different from your initial ‘die a death and happily kill others’ suggestion.

I think the above portrayal suggests an elitist view of those who can only operate in a ruthless, cold hearted and robotic manner and are completely dispensable. Possibly not the ‘career orientated individuals’ you also describe but then they are probably not the front line ‘die or happily kill’ brand you began with.

Oddly I probably share your ‘old fashioned pacifist, a conscie perhaps’ outlook. I certainly and successfully dissuaded all of my children from joining the armed forces but I do think they do other things other than kill or be killed, not least at times of natural disaster, protecting the innocent, and erecting temporary bridges etc at times of flood.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Fair point, their secondary role as stand in emergency services personnel is one I had not reflected upon

[Trickytreesreds]

Oddly I probably share your ‘old fashioned pacifist, a conscie perhaps’ outlook. I certainly and successfully dissuaded all of my children from joining the armed forces

And teachers don't force their political leaning on the young eh?


QED

[ramAnag]

Oddly I probably share your ‘old fashioned pacifist, a conscie perhaps’ outlook. I certainly and successfully dissuaded all of my children from joining the armed forces

And teachers don't force their political leaning on the young eh?


QED

Htf is that QED you utter pillock and wtf has it got to do with me being a teacher?

When I refer to ‘my children’ I don’t mean the children I taught...I mean the children I brought up and am a father to and no, I didn’t ‘force’ any political leanings on them but I am proud to say that they have all turned into decent minded adults who are wholly opposed to bullying and racism.

Now run along and take your obsession with me having been a teacher with you.

[Trickytreesreds]

Htf is that QED you utter pillock and wtf has it got to do with me being a teacher?

When I refer to ‘my children’ I don’t mean the children I taught...I mean the children I brought up and am a father to and no, I didn’t ‘force’ any political leanings on them but I am proud to say that they have all turned into decent minded adults who are wholly opposed to bullying and racism.

Now run along and take your obsession with me having been a teacher with you.

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooh, hark at her.

[AngryRam]

Htf is that QED you utter pillock and wtf has it got to do with me being a teacher?

When I refer to ‘my children’ I don’t mean the children I taught...I mean the children I brought up and am a father to and no, I didn’t ‘force’ any political leanings on them but I am proud to say that they have all turned into decent minded adults who are wholly opposed to bullying and racism.

Now run along and take your obsession with me having been a teacher with you.

Don’t Angry, leave it.
No drama here.