OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

Its an intriguing concept, one nation in effect owning the health service of another, which is riddled with wide ranging issues beyond simply the profit motives of that ownership. the level of control that could then be exercised by one over the other would be immense.

However, consider this, and don't shoot the mailman here - what are the essentials of a good NHS. Facilities & Equipment, staff and medicines I reckon, in no particular order.

First off, where do the medicines come from? Almost all "big pharma" is either American or (for off patent clones) Indian or Chinese. the big ones: Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Merck, Gilead are American; Roche and Novartis are Swiss; Sanofi is French, Bayer is German. GSK and Astra Zeneca are based in the UK, but are predominantly multinational.

Next, what about the medical equipment - 9 of the top 15 suppliers are American - GE, ostensibly English, is a subsidiary of an American company. The biggest, Medtronic, arguably Irish, is essentially American. The other big ones are European.

Staff? Well, I don't know how true it is, but I've often heard it said that the NHS would fall apart if it were not for imported / foreign labour.

There is a persuasive argument that our healthcare is already out of our hands: sure, its owned by "us" as a sort of nationalised industry, but all we really control are the buildings! Oh yes, and we are responsible for all those ridiculous layers of middle management that everyone villifies

Discuss, he says, polemically

[Trickytreesreds]

Tricky...you say ‘any party that tried to do that, would be finished’...but that’s the point. Any party that openly tried to do that as part of their manifesto would indeed be ‘finished’.

It’s what those two totally untrustworthy figures - Johnson and Trump - are getting up to in secret and off the record that concerns me.

Agree about the coalition of all party selected MP’s as an alternative.

Well all I can say to that is. If Johnson is up to no good with the NHS, then the Tory party would be finished.
It's that simple.

Please remember here though, no matter what Corbyn says, Labour have privatised the NHS more than anyone.
So when we talk about trust, can you really trust anyone?

In another way of looking at it. You and Mr said recently that the NHS was the best it had ever been under Blair/Brown?

In effect, that was when it was privatised the most. So is it really all bad to bring some of it into the private sector?

[Manofpride]

Problems will always arise in the NHS, a fantastic service but never enough money to fund it. Also the population increase doesn't help, 12,000,000 extra since 1970. With that kind of increase we need a lot more money in the pot.
Life expectancy is also up, more people and increased costs are adding to pressures on the NHS, people are also living longer.
Boris has promised £1.8 million boost for the NHS and an extra 50,000 NHS nurses by 2025. With that kind of cash investment and 50,0000 more nurses do you honestly think that will improve the NHS? Increasing wages, medical equipment and supplies all eat into it. The NHS is a great service but it will always have it's problems no matter who governs the Country.

[mistaram]

The Department Of Health and social Care accounts for 2018 show the commission spent 13.7 billion in private sector services or 11.3 of their budget . But they say if they included GPs , pharmacy, optical, and dental serviceable outsourced to private companies that would take it up to 25%
The Department says this is due to the 2012 Health and Social care Act

[mistaram]

Problems will always arise in the NHS, a fantastic service but never enough money to fund it. Also the population increase doesn't help, 12,000,000 extra since 1970. With that kind of increase we need a lot more money in the pot.
Life expectancy is also up, more people and increased costs are adding to pressures on the NHS, people are also living longer.
Boris has promised £1.8 million boost for the NHS and an extra 50,000 NHS nurses by 2025. With that kind of cash investment and 50,0000 more nurses do you honestly think that will improve the NHS? Increasing wages, medical equipment and supplies all eat into it. The NHS is a great service but it will always have it's problems no matter who governs the Country.

MoP surely your not naive enough to believe the 50,000 more nurses story Its already been proven to be another of his lies

[Manofpride]

Mista,
We won't know if it's a lie until 2025 . be it 500 5,000 or 50,000 the same problems will always be there.

[Geoff Parkstone]

MoP surely your not naive enough to believe the 50,000 more nurses story Its already been proven to be another of his lies

I prefer to think of it as another one from the dianne abbot school of maths

[mistaram]

Mista,
We won't know if it's a lie until 2025 . be it 500 5,000 or 50,000 the same problems willM always be there.

I

Yes that's true but what mps say at election times Has certainly no relevance once there elected If Johnson said he was only going to get five more nurses i wouldn't believe him

[ramAnag]

MoP surely your not naive enough to believe the 50,000 more nurses story Its already been proven to be another of his lies

Harsh mista...it’s just NTM - New Tory Maths - if you say something often enough it becomes the truth.

Fact is that a maximum of 31,500 equals 50,000 in the brave new world of NTM.

Keep repeating the mantra and Johnson, Hancock and Morgan will have made Diane Abbott look like Einstein by Election Day.

[mistaram]

Harsh mista...it’s just NTM - New Tory Maths - if you say something often enough it becomes the truth.

Fact is that a maximum of 31,500 equals 50,000 in the brave new world of NTM.

Keep repeating the mantra and Johnson, Hancock and Morgan will have made Diane Abbott look like Einstein by Election Day.

True RA but it's just surprising how many think it's 50,000 But the right wing press are not going to tell them Its a lie are they

[Trickytreesreds]

True RA but it's just surprising how many think it's 50,000 But the right wing press are not going to tell them Its a lie are they

It's all very well with Johnsons lies, but Corbyns are no different.
All his promises will be delivered? God knows, but according to the IFS, they don't add up.
Now his manifesto has a lot of IF'S AND BUT'S, but misses out adding the costs of stuff like re nationalisation, as Corbyn says it's costing nowt?
Again the IFS claim it's going to cost £192 billion?
So who's right?

If he's wrong, his promises to everything else like the NHS are just damned outright lies, or worse still naive pie in the sky?
I'd sooner believe my suggestion of an independantly run NHS. here's your £125 billion per annum.
Now if you want more, justify it.
No freebies to non citizens/stop wastage/organise your staff/source the correct prices etc.
Then we'll sit down and agree a fair rise, depending on need.

But it's election time. Politicians would never play the pied piper and play whatever music lures the most rats.

[ramAnag]

I don’t think either mista or I are suggesting Corbyn is honesty or competence personified, Tricky.

The point being made is simply that the latest Tory claims about a) numbers of new nurses and b) numbers of new hospitals are transparently untrue. They’ve been rumbled...the maths doesn’t stack up, they can’t even get their own story straight...and that’s got absolutely nothing to do with Corbyn.

[Trickytreesreds]

I wouldn't deny that.
But whoppers are the sorry state of politics, as much as the arrogance of ignoring what voters ask of their MP's

[swaledale]

I wouldn't deny that.
But whoppers are the sorry state of politics, as much as the arrogance of ignoring what voters ask of their MP's

Yes but that clown who is currently PM, admits that he has written and said clear lies. Is more than partly responsible for the mess of Brexit - a cause he does not believe in or care about, but has adopted because he saw it as the best way to advance his own personal ambitions. Has no principles at all, can't string a coherent sentence together and at the end of it all will laugh all the way to the bank irrespective of what happens all off the backs of ordinary people. There are plenty of options if your minded not to support Labour, but voting Tory and letting this lot in for 5 years is akin to shooting oneself in the foot.

[mistaram]

It's all very well with Johnsons lies, but Corbyns are no different.
All his promises will be delivered? God knows, but according to the IFS, they don't add up.
Now his manifesto has a lot of IF'S AND BUT'S, but misses out adding the costs of stuff like re nationalisation, as Corbyn says it's costing nowt?
Again the IFS claim it's going to cost £192 billion?
So who's right?

If he's wrong, his promises to everything else like the NHS are just damned outright lies, or worse still naive pie in the sky?
I'd sooner believe my suggestion of an independantly run NHS. here's your £125 billion per annum.
Now if you want more, justify it.
No freebies to non citizens/stop wastage/organise your staff/source the correct prices etc.
Then we'll sit down and agree a fair rise, depending on need.

But it's election time. Politicians would never play the pied piper and play whatever music lures the most rats.

Tricky are you forgetting something the IFS have said BOTH parties figures don't add up
As for Corbyns main promise to nationilse