OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Labour’s/Corbyn’s inadequacies at the last election are no longer relevant.
Farage apart...everyone knows that the leading players in the Brexit campaign were Johnson, Gove, Raab and a collection of other largely right wing Tories. They, accompanied by Cummings and the ineffectual UKIP, drove the Brexit campaign. If they are proved right they are entitled to take the credit. If, as currently seems more likely imo, that decision will be what they are judged on.

[Geoff Parkstone]

It's interesting that things in the past that don't support your argument are irrelevant, whereas other things in the past that do are hugely relevant. C'est la vie

[Trickytreesreds]

Well with the EU now taking charge of industrial production of vaccine, the old addage that Sir Nigel used to quote is coming true.
They are getting more like the Soviet bloc was, day by day.
Having already sucked in law/borders/money with an anthem/army/flag, closer union gets closer and closer.
Now a new job gets created for Arch-federalist Mr Verhofstadt being confirmed as chairman of a seven-person delegation which will spearhead the Conference on the Future of Europe, a series of events organised by the European Parliament, European Commission and European Council, and aimed at “giving citizens a greater role in shaping the Union's future policies and ambitions”.

All in font of your very eyes.
Don't believe me? Listen to those who lived under communism for decades. They know the signs.

Morawiecki, 52, likened the EU's approach to the dictatorship Poland had "known well" during its decades under the communist regime, The Times reports.

Like the Catholic church preach on contraception. "better out than in"

[Andy_Faber]

Someone in government really doesn’t like Swale. I’m not even going to post a link

[ramAnag]

It's interesting that things in the past that don't support your argument are irrelevant, whereas other things in the past that do are hugely relevant. C'est la vie

The Tories have been in power for almost eleven (11!) years, GP. Brexit was/is a Tory/UKIP concept so please don’t bang on about Corbyn or try and make the Labour Party relevant to that argument. Makes you sound like someone else.
All that matters now is, I agree, what happens next. Your Party of Government has a huge majority...where we go from here will be down to them. What happens next is all that is ‘hugely relevant’ but so far things don’t look good do they? We shall see, but I don’t think you playing the ‘I voted Remain’, ‘Covid’s made it a poisoned chalice’ and ‘let’s blame Labour’ cards is a very encouraging start.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Ok: I didn't say covid made it a poisoned chalice, it already was one whoever won the post referendum General elections.

Covid has muddied the waters of assessing the impact of Brexit.

I did not blame Labour, but noted that Labour were also pro Brexit on balance, or rather not against it as policy. Both major parties were split, whoever won the election would have had to press the leave button to reflect the referendum result.

I don't think even you can dispute these facts.

The point is, it's happened. Stop crying about it and try and make the best of what you see as a bad deal. Or if you prefer, sit in your pram and look at the toys on your floor: no matter how much you cry, they're not gonna get put back in the pram for you.

And my observation that I voted remain is factual. Your remain vote isn't mystically better than mine just because you seem more committed to the cause. It was raised in response to Swale calling me a brexiteer.

And its not my party of government, its ours. Its not what you want, its not even what I want, but it is what it is. Grow up and live with it.

[ramAnag]

Ok: I didn't say covid made it a poisoned chalice, it already was one whoever won the post referendum General elections.

Covid has muddied the waters of assessing the impact of Brexit.

I did not blame Labour, but noted that Labour were also pro Brexit on balance, or rather not against it as policy. Both major parties were split, whoever won the election would have had to press the leave button to reflect the referendum result.

I don't think even you can dispute these facts.

The point is, it's happened. Stop crying about it and try and make the best of what you see as a bad deal. Or if you prefer, sit in your pram and look at the toys on your floor: no matter how much you cry, they're not gonna get put back in the pram for you.

And my observation that I voted remain is factual. Your remain vote isn't mystically better than mine just because you seem more committed to the cause. It was raised in response to Swale calling me a brexiteer.

And its not my party of government, its ours. Its not what you want, its not even what I want, but it is what it is. Grow up and live with it.

Lol, ‘stop crying about it’....‘grow up and live with it’...‘look at the toys on your floor’’. Really? Wow...you really have morphed into TTR.

Have you read nothing...wtf is ‘crying’ and what’s ‘growing up’ got to do with it?

We’ve been through all this...it’s called holding people to account...they’re observations about how Brexit is going.
You don’t like them? That’s your problem...but it will be judged and not, as JRM suggests, in half a century, but by the next election.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I've always been TTR, sneaky duplicate accounts 😉

[Trickytreesreds]

But he's right, you are crying.
You've never stopped crying since 2016. You cried with the euro elections. You cried in the last general election.
Whichever way you look at at it, your "opionion" lost 3 times and it still hasn't sunk in.
The Tories are in power because there is no opposition to note.

Maybe, just maybe, you and those parties ought to be asking yourselves "WHY"?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Lol, ‘stop crying about it’....‘grow up and live with it’...‘look at the toys on your floor’’. Really? Wow...you really have morphed into TTR.

Have you read nothing...wtf is ‘crying’ and what’s ‘growing up’ got to do with it?

We’ve been through all this...it’s called holding people to account...they’re observations about how Brexit is going.
You don’t like them? That’s your problem...but it will be judged and not, as JRM suggests, in half a century, but by the next election.

That last point is interesting. If BJ called a snap election now (I'm not sure if that's even allowed) my money would be on him winning again on the back of "we've beaten covid" euphoris.

Will Joe public accept the deficiencies of Brexit even in 3 years time to such an extent that they will seek a party to return them to Europe? Does such a party even exist?

I think you seriously overestimate the electorate on this. If BJ loses the next election (if he even runs) I don't think it will be due to Brexit, but other things. And even if he loses, who is going to lead the nation humbly back to Brussels asking to be let back in.....

[Andy_Faber]

All getting a bit unseemly chaps we have few enough folk on here as it is without anyone else thinking of logging on and then deciding ah **** it

[ramAnag]

That last point is interesting. If BJ called a snap election now (I'm not sure if that's even allowed) my money would be on him winning again on the back of "we've beaten covid" euphoris.

Will Joe public accept the deficiencies of Brexit even in 3 years time to such an extent that they will seek a party to return them to Europe? Does such a party even exist?

I think you seriously overestimate the electorate on this. If BJ loses the next election (if he even runs) I don't think it will be due to Brexit, but other things. And even if he loses, who is going to lead the nation humbly back to Brussels asking to be let back in.....

I don’t think I’ll ever ‘overestimate’ the electorate again after Brexit. Unfortunately one of the side effects of the internet age is that, in political terms, we seem to have swapped an uninformed electorate for one that is deliberately misinformed.

I suspect you’re right and if an election was held now then BJ would win, on the back of the apparent success of the vaccine roll out and the fact that Starmer still has the Labour Party to sort out. However that isn’t what I said.

At the moment the cost/impact of Brexit is being hidden by the Covid crisis. I would love to be wrong but from what we know...to some extent via Swales’ factual observations...things do not look good and are very concerning.

Despite your argument to the contrary, the Party of Government is also the Party of Brexit. The electorate is renowned for short term thinking and they are certainly not going to, in Rees-Moggs’s words, wait half a century to see the benefit.

Assuming Covid is largely ‘done’ I do see the Brexit reality having a major impact in three years time, and rightly so.

[MadAmster]

Assuming Covid is largely ‘done’ I do see the Brexit reality having a major impact in three years time, and rightly so.

3 years and 9 months I thought...........

[Geoff Parkstone]

I don’t think I’ll ever ‘overestimate’ the electorate again after Brexit. Unfortunately one of the side effects of the internet age is that, in political terms, we seem to have swapped an uninformed electorate for one that is deliberately misinformed.

I suspect you’re right and if an election was held now then BJ would win, on the back of the apparent success of the vaccine roll out and the fact that Starmer still has the Labour Party to sort out. However that isn’t what I said.

At the moment the cost/impact of Brexit is being hidden by the Covid crisis. I would love to be wrong but from what we know...to some extent via Swales’ factual observations...things do not look good and are very concerning.

Despite your argument to the contrary, the Party of Government is also the Party of Brexit. The electorate is renowned for short term thinking and they are certainly not going to, in Rees-Moggs’s words, wait half a century to see the benefit.

Assuming Covid is largely ‘done’ I do see the Brexit reality having a major impact in three years time, and rightly so.

The state of Brexit in 3 years 9 months time will no doubt be influential, but none of us know what that influence will be, not even the great God Swale. Anyone can selectively reference "facts" that support an argument whilst ignoring contrary "facts". But even 45 months is a long time in politics. You should not assume that the perspective of today will be the perspective 45 months later.

Its all very well Remainers raising issues 3 months into the "brave new world" but that's not really any more relevant than the "50 years on" fantasies. Remember that game when we were 4-0 down at home to Ipswich at half time - most of us would have written it off as another disaster - then what happened?

I accept that Brexit will be mostly creditted to or blamed upon the party of government that effected the referendum decision, but I cannot imagine that said party will fail to point out to those that throw the accusation of "Brexit is on your conscience" were equally complicit in the decision. This will forever remain an outcome that split both parties and neither had the balls to fully align being a remain option for fear of alienating a massive proportion of its plebiscite.

You may wish to heap all the blame on the Tories, but the reality is that they just did the job that a diverse band of supporters of both mainstream parties wanted. Its those same people who will be voting in the next election - its going to be one hell of a big job for labour to (a) disassociate itself from the Brexit decision at parliamentary level (b) convince their grassroot supporters that they didnt want brexit after all and (c) to win back the lost heartland constituencies.

It would be a lot easier for Starmer to win the next election for other reasons, Brexit is too raw still. Those voters he has to win back and build on in order to win probably didnt vote for Brexit for economic reasons anyway and you wont be able to win back the hearts and minds of little englanders by quoting Swalean style "facts". He has to hope that those voters transferred allegiance on a one off basis "to get the job done" and will naturally return regardless of the brexit outcome.

[ramAnag]

The state of Brexit in 3 years 9 months time will no doubt be influential, but none of us know what that influence will be, not even the great God Swale. Anyone can selectively reference "facts" that support an argument whilst ignoring contrary "facts". But even 45 months is a long time in politics. You should not assume that the perspective of today will be the perspective 45 months later.

Its all very well Remainers raising issues 3 months into the "brave new world" but that's not really any more relevant than the "50 years on" fantasies. Remember that game when we were 4-0 down at home to Ipswich at half time - most of us would have written it off as another disaster - then what happened?

I accept that Brexit will be mostly creditted to or blamed upon the party of government that effected the referendum decision, but I cannot imagine that said party will fail to point out to those that throw the accusation of "Brexit is on your conscience" were equally complicit in the decision. This will forever remain an outcome that split both parties and neither had the balls to fully align being a remain option for fear of alienating a massive proportion of its plebiscite.

You may wish to heap all the blame on the Tories, but the reality is that they just did the job that a diverse band of supporters of both mainstream parties wanted. Its those same people who will be voting in the next election - its going to be one hell of a big job for labour to (a) disassociate itself from the Brexit decision at parliamentary level (b) convince their grassroot supporters that they didnt want brexit after all and (c) to win back the lost heartland constituencies.

It would be a lot easier for Starmer to win the next election for other reasons, Brexit is too raw still. Those voters he has to win back and build on in order to win probably didnt vote for Brexit for economic reasons anyway and you wont be able to win back the hearts and minds of little englanders by quoting Swalean style "facts". He has to hope that those voters transferred allegiance on a one off basis "to get the job done" and will naturally return regardless of the brexit outcome.

Don’t think I am assuming that today’s perspective will be the same in 45 months time (certainly hope not) or that anyone’s perception of Swale is of a ‘great God’.

Neither is that Ipswich game a very good comparison...it remains memorable precisely because it was so exceptional.

What happens as regards jobs, trade, food availability and our freedom to travel, and how Brexit impacts on such things over the next three years will, imo, go a long way to deciding the outcome of the next election.

I fully accept that it is ‘early days’, I fully accept that the pandemic has clouded the matter, however all I have done is acknowledged that things aren’t looking great on the Brexit front and all Swale has done is drawn more specific attention to some of the downsides so far.

Perhaps you, in your undecided way - voted against it eventually but now I’ll have to get on with it - or those ( very few) on here who consistently supported the idea could outline exactly what the benefits have been or are likely to be in the not too distant future instead of just continuing with the old ‘Remoaner’ rubbish.