OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Tricky...you’re making yourself look ridiculous...again.
Last week both MA and GP ridiculed your hopelessly inaccurate conclusions. Even today GP has corrected you...again.
Today you’ve misrepresented me by describing ‘my’ Abbott and Corbyn when anyone who follows this forum knows I have little time for either.
Now you’re saying I ‘believe that everything printed in the Guardian is the Holy Truth and never to be questioned’.

For the record, the facts are, I think both Abbott and Corbyn are lousy politicians, albeit with a great deal more integrity than most of the current Cabinet, but a marked tendency to shoot themselves in the foot. I also read articles in the Guardian, although I prefer the ‘i’, but I don’t believe any news source is ‘never to be questioned’.

You do what you do...put words in people’s mouths and make things up when you have no argument left...but if you could stop writing hopelessly inaccurate bollux about me it would be appreciated.

[Andy_Faber]

Agreeing with rA tricky, I think you had a bad morning, we are all aware of rA’s political leanings but no need for inaccuracies/fabrications to attempt to belittle them

[swaledale]

You are doing it again.

When I said ALL, it is tongue in cheek to you two screaming and shouting that all the lorry drivers have gone/ the fruit pickers/car washers, what will we do?
Even taking YOUR figure of 5 million, makes that look very unlikely then doesn't it.

So, when ANYONE complains about the illegal/and legal flood of immigration, it is a racist driven subject then?
Pathetic, even for you.

A governments first priority is to its citizens safety/welfare/ quality of life. Not pacifying industrialists/lefty liberal charities/ politicians personal feelings.

As for the last paragraph, its laughable. Your answer to it, is to bring in **** loads of cheap labour, to do something for peanuts instead of solving the issue at hand.
Not only fuelling poverty wages/ but impacting the welfare system/ social services/ quality of life. So much for your socialist leanings, you have more in kin with the exploitation of labour by industrialists.

Your "facts" are always on your say so and RA believes that everything printed in the Guardian is the Holy truth and must never be questioned.
Its all perspective sir and I'm afraid you 2 don't give an inch on opinions different to your own.

OK, well when we talk of facts, at least mine are verifiable whereas yours are usually direct quotes from some dodgy media source or a politician making mischief because they know people like you will lap it up.

So now your back tracking? Admitting that neither rA or myself said all the Eu migrants had gone, thanks for that.

Neither were we screaming about all the lorry drivers etc. have gone - however, it is the case that there are still serious shortages of labour in many industries and indeed the NHS its a verifiable fact, you don't have to do much research to establish that's true.

The reason is simple demographics, I repeat this every time, but you seem not to understand there are not enough people to do the jobs available due to the drop in birth rate.

That's the thing about Brexit, some how the establishment and industrialists persuaded the people they have been exploiting and ripping off for many decades to vote for something that would actually make them worse off.

There has been much detailed independent research that shows EU immigration did not result in lower wages any more than Brexit has resulted in increased wages - with the possible exception of some lucky lorry drivers. On the other hand a reduction in the power of unions and anti union legislation may well have done so!

I agree a government s first duty is to look after the welfare and safety of its citizens - something that this Tory government has singularly failed to do by imposing a ruinous austerity regime and failing to invest in public services and infrastructure over the past 13 years. That's not my opinion its an easily established fact.

But I keep asking this question - the economy as it currently runs requires a workforce to continue growth, pay for pensions and health care of our aging population etc. which we all benefit from. Sure we could manage with lower growth and different economic model, somehow I don't think you or those who voted Brexit are up for that.

But if this growth of population had resulted from an increase in the birth rate of the resident population, which would have the same impact on jobs, services etc. what would your solution be?

The failure in managing immigration can also be laid at the door of this government and yes if they don't resource services properly, if they insist on acting illegally in applying the law - or are you suggesting that the law should only be applied where it suits? If so what happens when you are the victim of a government misapplying the law? - then they will fail.

The fact is this government governs by empty rhetoric, blaming immigration or so called woke lefty's for their own failures - and providing simplistic solutions to complex issues - the EU certainly wasn't perfect, what organisation created by humans is?

My facts are those which can be verified from a number of sources, I certainly don't think the Guardian or indeed any media can be trusted completely, I read across a range of media and sources coupled with my own experiences and knowledge I am as often appalled by those on the left as those on the right.

I've actually acknowledged where some things you have said are right, but of course when something is clearly not as you have said - I'm hardly going to agree.

[swaledale]

hey, don't come the raw prawn with me. I'm supporting you entirely in the above post. Everything you post is spot on, everything anyone else posts is tripe and swallowed/regurgitated propoganda. Well maybe apart from the bit about pigs which as about 18 month old old news, and by no means as extreme as the media (not right wing media) made out.

I'm glad you do, very comforting to know that serious deep thinking gentleman like yourself is supportive. It gives me a nice warm feeling, but that maybe because I've pissed myself!

Oh by the way, the pigs issue is very much alive, (or dead), its tapered off because pig farmers reduced their stocking rates or are getting out of pigs altogether.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I'm glad you do, very comforting to know that serious deep thinking gentleman like yourself is supportive. It gives me a nice warm feeling, but that maybe because I've pissed myself!

Oh by the way, the pigs issue is very much alive, (or dead), its tapered off because pig farmers reduced their stocking rates or are getting out of pigs altogether.

Please don't lecture someone who has forgotten more about pig farming than you've ever known

[MadAmster]

The reason is simple demographics, I repeat this every time, but you seem not to understand there are not enough people to do the jobs available due to the drop in birth rate.

IMO all down to the 1%, the shareholders wanting to keep up growth at any price. The less people you have, the less goods and service you need which results in less people needed in work. That's fine, until Shareholders realise that will mean less dividend and they can't be having that. Growth year on year, regardless of the situation, is what they demand and government gives it to them. The falling birth rate means the UK has to get immigrants in or the shareholders will complain. EU migration is being replaced by non-EU immigration. Not exactly a step forwards is it.

Pensions? Of course, the UK needs more people in work and paying taxes in order to fund pensions. That's a given. Take a look at countries like France, Netherlands, Germany and others and you will see that their version of NICs are paid into pension funds. It's not current taxpayers forking out the pension money. Pensioners paid into the fund all their working life and that "pot" pays out more than the UK pension. In NL the full state pension is now €16734 a year. Taxed at 20%. Having paid contributions over less than the prescribed number of years, my state pension is a proportion of that. Idem ditto my UK state pension. Works pension on top of those. France and Germany don't have a flat rate. There is a max of around €28K. What you actually get in state pension is based on lifetime average annual earnings. To get the max you need a lifetime average earnings of just under €80K. As you can see, comparisons are hard to make due to the different systems used.

[ramAnag]

According to Statista...last month 55% of voters now believe Brexit to have been a mistake.
Only 32% continue to think it was a good move and the ‘don’t knows’ remain at between 11-14%.

Wonder what those on here who have defended Brexit on nothing more than the basis of democratic accountability will make of that.

Personally I very much hope such realisation at least spells the end of one Nigel Farage’s hugely damaging political ‘career’.

[Trickytreesreds]

According to Statista...last month 55% of voters now believe Brexit to have been a mistake.
Only 32% continue to think it was a good move and the ‘don’t knows’ remain at between 11-14%.

Wonder what those on here who have defended Brexit on nothing more than the basis of democratic accountability will make of that.

Personally I very much hope such realisation at least spells the end of one Nigel Farage’s hugely damaging political ‘career’.

Morning mate.
Just to help you in your cry fest.
Details: United Kingdom (Great Britain); YouGov; March 29-30, 2023; 2,002 respondents; 18 years and older; GB Adults

© Statista 2023

You're welcome.

[SithHappens]

According to Statista...last month 55% of voters now believe Brexit to have been a mistake.
Only 32% continue to think it was a good move and the ‘don’t knows’ remain at between 11-14%.

Wonder what those on here who have defended Brexit on nothing more than the basis of democratic accountability will make of that.

Personally I very much hope such realisation at least spells the end of one Nigel Farage’s hugely damaging political ‘career’.

I'd expect to see the numbers move in favour of remain considering the over 75s we're hugely in favour of leave and a lot of them will be gone now. The younger generation who wanted to stay but couldn't be arsed to go and vote would probably vote now.

[ramAnag]

Morning mate.
Just to help you in your cry fest.
Details: United Kingdom (Great Britain); YouGov; March 29-30, 2023; 2,002 respondents; 18 years and older; GB Adults

© Statista 2023

You're welcome.

Ah...you’re back...was getting concerned, hence the ‘dog whistle’. You never could resist.
Not sure of your point, or how pointing out the result of a recent ‘poll’ constitutes a ‘cry fest’.

You may think differently, but there is increasingly little to offer in terms of defending/supporting the manifestation of a political strategy/philosophy which you alone, on here, actually support. Your tears, not mine...‘mate’.

[Trickytreesreds]

Ah...you’re back...was getting concerned, hence the ‘dog whistle’. You never could resist.
Not sure of your point, or how pointing out the result of a recent ‘poll’ constitutes a ‘cry fest’.

You may think differently, but there is increasingly little to offer in terms of defending/supporting the manifestation of a political strategy/philosophy which you alone, on here, actually support. Your tears, not mine...‘mate’.

Yes, I'm back. Full of life after island hopping and snorkelling with the little fishy's

My point was, you just tossed in a " survey" telling the whole sorry story in your eyes, to fuel you incessant cry fest.
When the reality was, 2000 people were asked on YOUGOV.

I don't know if you're a member on Yougov(I am). But one of their own surveys, about membership, showed that 2/3 of its membership are left leaning Labour professionals like yourself.

Now depending where they asked that question, you could get a different answer everytime.
Ask it in London and it will be higher.
Ask it in Lancashire and it will be way lower.

But 2000 opinions from a biased group, isn't supporting your representation of "the voters" and is so very wrong.

I aint crying. Neither I nor anyone I know regrets leaving.
Just because you wish us to do so, doesn't make it true.

Still, at least you didn't drag the Tories into it.

[ramAnag]

Okay...glad you enjoyed yourself.

I quoted an up to date standard sized poll from a reliable source but you obviously know best and believe Brexit has been advantageous to the country. I suspect you’re in the minority but again...no cry fest and nothing ‘incessant’...indeed I haven’t commented on Brexit before today since March 6th.

[Andy_Faber]

Okay...glad you enjoyed yourself.

I quoted an up to date standard sized poll from a reliable source but you obviously know best and believe Brexit has been advantageous to the country. I suspect you’re in the minority but again...no cry fest and nothing ‘incessant’...indeed I haven’t commented on Brexit before today since March 6th.

TTR does have a point re Yougov, its own analysis suggests it’s been ‘hijacked’ to some extent by the far left which sort of reinforces an earlier point I made that small c conservative opinions tend to be shared less until it matters

[ramAnag]

TTR does have a point re Yougov, its own analysis suggests it’s been ‘hijacked’ to some extent by the far left which sort of reinforces an earlier point I made that small c conservative opinions tend to be shared less until it matters

Tbh I don’t know enough about Yougov or its relationship with Statista (who I quoted) to comment. To return to my original point...it appears, whichever way you look, that the tide (ie the court of public opinion) has well and truly turned as regards our perception of Brexit and that, imo, is the important issue here.

P.S. Given some (most) of the sources quoted by TTR, the irony of him referring to an independent poll as biased shouldn’t go unnoticed.

[Andy_Faber]

Tbh I don’t know enough about Yougov or its relationship with Statista (who I quoted) to comment. To return to my original point...it appears, whichever way you look, that the tide (ie the court of public opinion) has well and truly turned as regards our perception of Brexit and that, imo, is the important issue here.

P.S. Given some (most) of the sources quoted by TTR, the irony of him referring to an independent poll as biased shouldn’t go unnoticed.

The relationship is that in this case Statista get their data directly from Yougov so the comment made by TTR supported by me regarding the probable left-biased nature of Yougov polls is valid.