OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Glad you enjoyed the hols TTR.

With regard to the post of yours I've quoted, what exactly was the response from the 2002 respondents? Is this the same one to which rA referred?

Hello Maddy. Thank you.

Yes the statistics of what he quoted, didn't include the demographics that I quoted.
The eye is in the detail.
No YOUGOV aren't going to admit who they included. But the fact remains, 2/3 thirds are left leaning, professionals. Now they may have allowed for this in their invites, I don't know. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'll give you an example of one I filled in today.
It was about the NHS and private treatment.

I have had both sets myself in the past. Now I am a firm supporter of the NHS, but lets be honest here, it lacks and falls short of so many things.

Their main question was- "given the choice with an operation, would you rather be treated privately or by the NHS"? No money objections.

79% of the current vote was in favour of NHS treatment, for the operation?
Now I find this hard to believe, given sharing a ward with others, screwing up your sleep /privacy/ personal medical attention.
Having had an op, with a private room/ own nurse/ own bathroom / meal menu, I know what I would always prefer.

So my conclusion, had to be. That the participants, were allowing their own feelings/political leanings effect the poll and its quest for a true feeling.

But YOUGOV has become this way.
A Tory screws up and the polls run riot. A Labour Mp screws up and the same enthusiasm for blood isn't there.

It's interesting though to observe.

[Trickytreesreds]

RA, may I ask you a question in line with the topic you raised?

Lets just assume, what you are proposing is true.

The political parties certainly are not pushing that agenda of feeling.

Torys, are sticking with it, in a fashion( not to my liking though)
Labour? Well Starmer keeps repeating that Brexit is done and we move on?
Reform? Well they certainly want more done, than the Tories delivered.
SNP? Well lets just forget that one

What about the Libs? They still rant on about rejoining, no matter what. So perhaps you should throw your colours behind their efforts?
At least your voice, would have an audience of agreement.

[ramAnag]

RA, may I ask you a question in line with the topic you raised?

Lets just assume, what you are proposing is true.

The political parties certainly are not pushing that agenda of feeling.

Torys, are sticking with it, in a fashion( not to my liking though)
Labour? Well Starmer keeps repeating that Brexit is done and we move on?
Reform? Well they certainly want more done, than the Tories delivered.
SNP? Well lets just forget that one

What about the Libs? They still rant on about rejoining, no matter what. So perhaps you should throw your colours behind their efforts?
At least your voice, would have an audience of agreement.

My objection to Brexit transcends Party lines, Tricky. Always has done.
Even back between 2016-19 Corbyn was no fan of the EU and, despite the fact that you always seek to label me as a hard Labour man I’m really not.
My political stance is invariably to be found somewhere amongst the centre left although, as with most people, it varies somewhat depending upon what is the subject of debate.
I don’t need to tie my colours to any particular Party and I don’t wish to toe any particular Party line.
Yes I despise what the current Tory Party has become because, imo, it has become a Party synonymous with arrogance, greed and dishonesty and my objections to Brexit are that it makes the UK worse off in terms of our economy, in terms of our defence/relationship with our European neighbours and was built on a web of deceit created by two ‘front men’ in particular who sought to put their own well being above the national interest.
Of those who are most likely to be elected PM at the next election I would prefer Starmer, but that doesn’t mean that I regard him, or Labour, as a perfect fit...just a huge improvement upon what we’ve had to put up with over the last 13 years.

Still unclear, following your answer to MA’s question, of what you’re actually suggesting. Could you explain further please...what does ‘yes the statistics of what he quoted, didn’t include the demographics that I quoted’ actually mean?

[MadAmster]

rA, I would have added that one of the 2 "front men" (and nobody has more front than them) to whom you refer was a very late mover to the Leave side. He had 2 sets of articles/speeches ready to launch once he'd decided which side he thought was going to win. One Remain and one Leave. As we all know, he went with Leave in the end.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Making Brexit work is essential because you cannot move forward, or grow the country, or deliver change, or win back the trust of those who have lost faith in politics if you’re constantly focused on the arguments of the past.

Perhaps people on this forum (particularly rA) should consider the above. A prize for anyone who can attribute these words without recourse to google

[Andy_Faber]

Making Brexit work is essential because you cannot move forward, or grow the country, or deliver change, or win back the trust of those who have lost faith in politics if you’re constantly focused on the arguments of the past.

Perhaps people on this forum (particularly rA) should consider the above. A prize for anyone who can attribute these words without recourse to google

Tricky?

[ramAnag]

Making Brexit work is essential because you cannot move forward, or grow the country, or deliver change, or win back the trust of those who have lost faith in politics if you’re constantly focused on the arguments of the past.

Perhaps people on this forum (particularly rA) should consider the above. A prize for anyone who can attribute these words without recourse to google

I understand your desire to move forward GP...and I understand how tiresome the Brexit argument has become.

On the other hand I cannot help but wonder...when was the last time you, professionally or personally, thought it would be a good idea to press on with the consequences of a decision that has been proved to be both flawed and damaging?

Sometimes you have to take a backwards step in order to make progress. The ‘arguments of the past’ are, unfortunately, very much the arguments of the present simply because we are only able to fully recognise the implications of those arguments/lies now.

I’d guess it was probably Keir Starmer...but then, in terms of political expediency, I think you have to acknowledge that being ‘blamed’ for prolonging the public Brexit debate probably equates to political suicide. People, including me, are utterly fed up of it and any wannabe PM has to distance themselves from being identified as someone reigniting the whole Brexit debate. Back in the real world however some form of subtle renegotiation seems highly likely imo and I don’t think we should ever forget who is to blame for the mess we find ourselves in.

[MadAmster]

Blame Cum n Bozza n Farridge, rA.

[Geoff Parkstone]

It was indeed Keir Starmer about 9 months ago. Distancing himself for sure, but also recognising that we're stuck with what we've got and noting the futility of keeping on raking over the misjudgements of the past.

It is what it is, we are stuck with it for the immediate future and a new PM at the next election isn't going to overturn things for fear of aggravating a significant proportion of his support (whoever it is elected as Brexit was cross party alliance)

Yes subtle renegotiations might happen but a move towards Norway/Canada/reentry into free trade zone (which I'd very much support) is neither subtle nor renegotiation.

So while I know when to personally call time on a busted flush, it's not really comparable as politicians don't work on the premise of what's good for the country/economy but rather on what's good for their careers.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Blame for it.....Farage for stirring it up, Johnson as the poor sod who had to put it into effect (and make personal political hay from adopting the cause) but basically the idiotic British man in the street was truly to blame

[Andy_Faber]

On the other hand I cannot help but wonder...when was the last time you, professionally or personally, thought it would be a good idea to press on with the consequences of a decision that has been proved to be both flawed and damaging?

The big thing you continue to miss or ignore is that the decision’s made, no-one with even the slimmest chance of power is pushing to reverse that decision so the ONLY constructive path is to ‘press on’

I know I’m answering GPSs question but in business YES I’ve ‘pressed on’ when a business venture has become, part way through, less lucrative than forecast, and (as with Brexit) there was no backing out. The ‘pressing on’ allowed me to complete and make the best of the venture, accept the outcome and move on to the next one with lessons learned.

[swaledale]

I understand your desire to move forward GP...and I understand how tiresome the Brexit argument has become.

On the other hand I cannot help but wonder...when was the last time you, professionally or personally, thought it would be a good idea to press on with the consequences of a decision that has been proved to be both flawed and damaging?

Sometimes you have to take a backwards step in order to make progress. The ‘arguments of the past’ are, unfortunately, very much the arguments of the present simply because we are only able to fully recognise the implications of those arguments/lies now.

I’d guess it was probably Keir Starmer...but then, in terms of political expediency, I think you have to acknowledge that being ‘blamed’ for prolonging the public Brexit debate probably equates to political suicide. People, including me, are utterly fed up of it and any wannabe PM has to distance themselves from being identified as someone reigniting the whole Brexit debate. Back in the real world however some form of subtle renegotiation seems highly likely imo and I don’t think we should ever forget who is to blame for the mess we find ourselves in.

Yet it seems over half the voters now want some form of reversal of Brexit, having seen how negatively it is impacting on the UK. That of course plus it hasn't delivered any of the benefits that were promised - migration isn't down and in fact the issue is worse as we have no return agreement, travel is more difficult and is going to cost, the NHS is on its knees, no sign of the Brexit dividend.

Also the perspective of those of us of more senior years is bound to be different from the 40's or under who can see what a **** show its been and will press for some positive changes. Whilst Starmer is avoiding Brexit to avoid the predicted attacks, realistically, a re-entry to customs union and single market must be on the agenda, there is no other way of improving the U's situation.

Given Sunak saying that NI has a unique opportunity having free access to the UK and EU markets, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Tories adopting that, indeed there are signs that the pro hard Brexit nutters in the Tory party are being disenfranchised as reality hits.

[swaledale]

The big thing you continue to miss or ignore is that the decision’s made, no-one with even the slimmest chance of power is pushing to reverse that decision so the ONLY constructive path is to ‘press on’

I know I’m answering GPSs question but in business YES I’ve ‘pressed on’ when a business venture has become, part way through, less lucrative than forecast, and (as with Brexit) there was no backing out. The ‘pressing on’ allowed me to complete and make the best of the venture, accept the outcome and move on to the next one with lessons learned.

Doubt you would have pressed on with a business venture that was clearly going to bankrupt a company! Starmer is talking about making Brexit "work", thats vague enough to mean anything, the reality is that rejoining the single market/customs union is the only realistic option and the mood within politics with both the Tories and Labour as well as it seems the majority of voters is swinging this way.

Also it is important that the failure of Brexit to deliver what was promised and that it never will, is repeated ad nauseam, this is one big con, that people need reminding about for as long as it takes for it to be understood, no matter how much the Brexiteers would like it to be forgotten.

[ramAnag]

Blame Cum n Bozza n Farridge, rA.

Indeed, MA...along with a few rich Right wing fanatics who financed the whole charade and who we should all be deeply wary of at the next election.

[ramAnag]

Blame for it.....Farage for stirring it up, Johnson as the poor sod who had to put it into effect (and make personal political hay from adopting the cause) but basically the idiotic British man in the street was truly to blame

‘Poor sod’! He stirred things up as much as Farage...as MA pointed out earlier he and his bloody battle bus were all part of his calculated risk to court popularity amongst the ‘idiotic British man in the street’ you refer to.