Election Year or Fear!

[Andy_Faber]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;40518367]You’ll have to explain that first sentence. Why else are schools, hospitals and roads in such a comparatively dreadful state?

A number of reasons and not all laid at HMG door. That's why I say our partisan, your first thought (over many years and subjects) is to find or hope for fault in the Tories or Brexit, and whist they are a long way from being brilliant, there have and continue to be other factors, many of which I've bleated on about in a non-partisan way - 'waste' (poor processes), increased demand (partly but not solely immigration), higher expectations, and the eggshells that public servants have to negotiate to stay 'clean' (which I guess has an impact on 'waste') etc etc. I might be unusual but when there's a cock -up my first thought isn't to dump on the people in charge, in terms of politics I think yours is.

As we are in a (hopefully long-lasting) period of ceasefire, I'd be interested to know the criteria you use for voting intentions. I've seen 'anyone but the Tories' which IMO is a bit sad

[ramAnag]

Always happy to be part of a cease fire…not always reciprocated on here.
I might not always have adopted an ‘anyone but the Tories’ policy but after the last eight years it feels that way…or it did until Reform UK and NF came along.

Anyway…my vote, in a notoriously Tory part of the world, will be to get rid of our MP (Sarah Dines) who is a south east based Johnson supporting type Tory who I have no time at all for. Under such circumstances my vote will go to whoever is most likely to unseat her…except Reform UK!

Beyond that my realistic national hope will be for a Labour victory on the basis that I want to see better public services, better relations with our European neighbours, greater political integrity and a fairer more equitable society. I’m not a Labour Party member and I don’t think they’re any sort of panacea for all our ills but I do expect them to be one hell of an improvement on what we’ve had to put up with since 2019.

[Andy_Faber]

Always happy to be part of a cease fire…not always reciprocated on here.
I might not always have adopted an ‘anyone but the Tories’ policy but after the last eight years it feels that way…or it did until Reform UK and NF came along.

Anyway…my vote, in a notoriously Tory part of the world, will be to get rid of our MP (Sarah Dines) who is a south east based Johnson supporting type Tory who I have no time at all for. Under such circumstances my vote will go to whoever is most likely to unseat her…except Reform UK!

Beyond that my realistic national hope will be for a Labour victory on the basis that I want to see better public services, better relations with our European neighbours, greater political integrity and a fairer more equitable society. I’m not a Labour Party member and I don’t think they’re any sort of panacea for all our ills but I do expect them to be one hell of an improvement on what we’ve had to put up with since 2019.

Hmm that’s more a hoped for outcome than a set of criteria…

[ramAnag]

Not really…I think you’re being a bit pedantic there. Criteria may be defined as a standard by which something is judged.
If, by the time of the next election, those things I’ve mentioned, together with policing, our rivers/general water and sewage management and transport infrastructure haven’t improved, then Labour, if elected in July, will be judged accordingly. I don’t doubt that there are other more complex economic matters which I don’t fully understand…but then neither do the vast majority and I’ll guarantee that I’ve given it more thought than most.

Seeing as you’ve brought it up, what is your ‘criteria’ for how you’ll vote and what are your (political) hopes for the future?

[Andy_Faber]

Not really…I think you’re being a bit pedantic there. Criteria may be defined as a standard by which something is judged.
If, by the time of the next election, those things I’ve mentioned, together with policing, our rivers/general water and sewage management and transport infrastructure haven’t improved, then Labour, if elected in July, will be judged accordingly. I don’t doubt that there are other more complex economic matters which I don’t fully understand…but then neither do the vast majority and I’ll guarantee that I’ve given it more thought than most.

Seeing as you’ve brought it up, what is your ‘criteria’ for how you’ll vote and what are your (political) hopes for the future?

Not pedantic, I was just expecting a different ‘method’.

For my part, to start, I’ve considered, but NOT majored on, recent performance/behaviour for which they get a D+ / 16th in the league table so not a good start.

However I’m a) a forgiving fellah and b) forward looking, so from there I’ve looked at what each party is offering (not regional parties) via their manifestos (by studying their summaries, I’m not sad enough to look at the whole tomes) and by then reviewing the INDEPENDANT reports made regarding each, all parties are basically liars they can’t help it. That’s already knocked out Reform and the greens as their numbers are
Over optimistic by a factor of God knows. That leaves the three biggies and I considered whether each would improve a) my life (and the lives of my loved ones) and be b) the life of the country, again using INDEPENDANT analysis to help. And that’s as far as you’ll get in knowing my voting intentions, apart from me confirming I won’t have never and would never tactically vote, I find it distasteful in The Weakest Link never mind an election, just a personal view. But now you know my ‘method’ as a non partisan forward looking semi-selfish partly altruistic person who’s described himself here a few times as a capitalist with a social conscience

[MadAmster]

BTW Maddy, do you then approve that Labours opponant for Farage is a much nicer prospect?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU1fkM3Ztwk&t=530s

If that's his stance, then absolutely NOT. I'm surprised, in fact, that Labour would allow that. If the constituency party knew that beforehand, they blundered. If they didn't, then they didn't do a good background check and blundered.

If we accept that he's a racist and not just a student who, 4 years ago, made a stupid comment on Twitter, then maybe he should be removed from the ballot. I'm pretty sure I've said things in the past I wouldn't even contemplate today. If he still thinks the way he did in 2020, then away with him.

Maybe we should also remove all racist Reform candidates from the ballot as well. That would see Farridge off the ballot as well as most, if not all, of his fellow reform candidates.

If you watched all of that Tousi video, you'll see he says that he (Tousi) lies about everything. It's the first video of his I've seen and, hopefully, the last as he comes across as a slithery snake oil salesman.

[ramAnag]

Not pedantic, I was just expecting a different ‘method’.

For my part, to start, I’ve considered, but NOT majored on, recent performance/behaviour for which they get a D+ / 16th in the league table so not a good start.

However I’m a) a forgiving fellah and b) forward looking, so from there I’ve looked at what each party is offering (not regional parties) via their manifestos (by studying their summaries, I’m not sad enough to look at the whole tomes) and by then reviewing the INDEPENDANT reports made regarding each, all parties are basically liars they can’t help it. That’s already knocked out Reform and the greens as their numbers are
Over optimistic by a factor of God knows. That leaves the three biggies and I considered whether each would improve a) my life (and the lives of my loved ones) and be b) the life of the country, again using INDEPENDANT analysis to help. And that’s as far as you’ll get in knowing my voting intentions, apart from me confirming I won’t have never and would never tactically vote, I find it distasteful in The Weakest Link never mind an election, just a personal view. But now you know my ‘method’ as a non partisan forward looking semi-selfish partly altruistic person who’s described himself here a few times as a capitalist with a social conscience

Nothing wrong with capitalism, imo, AF…as long as it is responsible capitalism with a conscience.
You’re a landlord I believe…again nothing wrong with that so long as you’re not one of the unscrupulous ones. Years ago, early 1980’s to be more precise, my pregnant wife, two young children and I were chucked out of a house in Ashbourne by a landlady who went on to become an eminent Tory councillor. We’d done nothing wrong, personal circumstances just meant she needed to reclaim the property at less than a month’s notice and I’m still ashamed to admit that at 26-27 I didn’t have the where with all to stand up to her and her ‘agents’.
Years later I had a little dabble at being a landlord with my late mother’s property. The elderly lady who rented from us later went on to describe me as the best landlord she’d ever had. You see the difference - and I hope that doesn’t come across as ‘virtue signalling’ - but I’d prefer someone thought that about me than having an extra £60 pcm in the bank.

That goes for all walks of life and all sorts of bosses/landlords etc. We have to learn to treat people with respect and I agree…it’s enormously difficult sometimes, but we’ve had a very unkind, uncaring and disrespectful form of government over recent years. One that is completely devoid of altruism. That, imo, is what the modern Tory Party and Farage, Anderson and Co represent so, I’ll be voting for change in the most effective way I can and I honestly don’t care if voting tactically earns anyone’s disapproval. This isn’t some daft game show…it’s real life.

[Andy_Faber]

Nothing wrong with capitalism, imo, AF…as long as it is responsible capitalism with a conscience.
You’re a landlord I believe…again nothing wrong with that so long as you’re not one of the unscrupulous ones. Years ago, early 1980’s to be more precise, my pregnant wife, two young children and I were chucked out of a house in Ashbourne by a landlady who went on to become an eminent Tory councillor. We’d done nothing wrong, personal circumstances just meant she needed to reclaim the property at less than a month’s notice and I’m still ashamed to admit that at 26-27 I didn’t have the where with all to stand up to her and her ‘agents’.
Years later I had a little dabble at being a landlord with my late mother’s property. The elderly lady who rented from us later went on to describe me as the best landlord she’d ever had. You see the difference - and I hope that doesn’t come across as ‘virtue signalling’ - but I’d prefer someone thought that about me than having an extra £60 pcm in the bank.

That goes for all walks of life and all sorts of bosses/landlords etc. We have to learn to treat people with respect and I agree…it’s enormously difficult sometimes, but we’ve had a very unkind, uncaring and disrespectful form of government over recent years. One that is completely devoid of altruism. That, imo, is what the modern Tory Party and Farage, Anderson and Co represent so, I’ll be voting for change in the most effective way I can and I honestly don’t care if voting tactically earns anyone’s disapproval. This isn’t some daft game show…it’s real life.

yes we're landlords and IMO bloody excellent ones (rent at (just) below market rate, keep properties in great order, respond to tenant issues prompty (usually on the day), allow things that others don't such as pets, 'DSS' etc, have a semi-friendly relationship with those that want one, and yes even accommodate recent immigrants, blah blah), we have a number of properties and chose to stop at a point where to be honest the business model would have still worked for us with ten times the number of properties in our ownership or for that matter a hundred. Bear in mind that to my knowledge all our tenants either choose to rent when they could buy, or are so far from being able to buy that renting is a lifelong expectation, so we (maybe accidentally I'd accept) aren't contributing to the generation rent trap. We 'accidentally' fell into the property 'business' (renovate and sell as well) and just found it was something we were good at, and it gave me/us a sense of fulfillment when our jobs were wellish paid but less 'hands on'. Both renting and selling on have their own legal, commercial and tax implications which is why we have to look a bit deeper into each party's manifestos than most at election time I think.

[ramAnag]

yes we're landlords and IMO bloody excellent ones (rent at (just) below market rate, keep properties in great order, respond to tenant issues prompty (usually on the day), allow things that others don't such as pets, 'DSS' etc, have a semi-friendly relationship with those that want one, and yes even accommodate recent immigrants, blah blah), we have a number of properties and chose to stop at a point where to be honest the business model would have still worked for us with ten times the number of properties in our ownership or for that matter a hundred. Bear in mind that to my knowledge all our tenants either choose to rent when they could buy, or are so far from being able to buy that renting is a lifelong expectation, so we (maybe accidentally I'd accept) aren't contributing to the generation rent trap. We 'accidentally' fell into the property 'business' (renovate and sell as well) and just found it was something we were good at, and it gave me/us a sense of fulfillment when our jobs were wellish paid but less 'hands on'. Both renting and selling on have their own legal, commercial and tax implications which is why we have to look a bit deeper into each party's manifestos than most at election time I think.

Good for you…honestly…I’m sure you’re one of the ‘good guys’ and I understand your dilemma. However we have to look further than ourselves. If your, and possibly my, income takes a small ‘hit’ in the name of creating a fairer society with better services then that’s okay with me, but ‘looking after number one’ appears to have become the overwhelming raison d’etre in recent years and I don’t think that is okay.
Sorry on here too much at the moment. Bit bored…sitting on a lovely balcony with a great view and a raging ******* cold. Not in the best of moods…be better tomorrow…and doing something else.

[swaledale]

Not pedantic, I was just expecting a different ‘method’.

For my part, to start, I’ve considered, but NOT majored on, recent performance/behaviour for which they get a D+ / 16th in the league table so not a good start.

However I’m a) a forgiving fellah and b) forward looking, so from there I’ve looked at what each party is offering (not regional parties) via their manifestos (by studying their summaries, I’m not sad enough to look at the whole tomes) and by then reviewing the INDEPENDANT reports made regarding each, all parties are basically liars they can’t help it. That’s already knocked out Reform and the greens as their numbers are
Over optimistic by a factor of God knows. That leaves the three biggies and I considered whether each would improve a) my life (and the lives of my loved ones) and be b) the life of the country, again using INDEPENDANT analysis to help. And that’s as far as you’ll get in knowing my voting intentions, apart from me confirming I won’t have never and would never tactically vote, I find it distasteful in The Weakest Link never mind an election, just a personal view. But now you know my ‘method’ as a non partisan forward looking semi-selfish partly altruistic person who’s described himself here a few times as a capitalist with a social conscience

So tactical voting, whereby one votes for the party most likely to unseat the incumbent MP, whose views and politics one disapproves of is distasteful? How? One of the weaknesses of the current FPTP system is that thousands if not millions of votes count for nothing, there may be a change due to the circumstances of this election whereby even "safe" Tory seats are at risk.

Surely given politics is a compromise at the best of times there is nothing wrong at all with voting for a party on the basis that they have the best chance of winning and are a less worse choice than the incumbent MP? One of the reasons the Conservatives have been in government so often is that centre left or left leaning parties tend to split the vote. Certainly in my constituency the best chance of getting the Tory out is to vote Labour and for those that would have voted Green or Lib Dem to "lend" their votes to Labour on this occasion. Otherwise the result will be the Tory remains in power, with less than 45% of the vote.

This time around with reform and Independents standing, there is a few thousand votes needed to topple the Tory - any sensible person will therefore vote for the next best thing, otherwise they are wasting their vote.

[Andy_Faber]

So tactical voting, whereby one votes for the party most likely to unseat the incumbent MP, whose views and politics one disapproves of is distasteful? How? One of the weaknesses of the current FPTP system is that thousands if not millions of votes count for nothing, there may be a change due to the circumstances of this election whereby even "safe" Tory seats are at risk.

Surely given politics is a compromise at the best of times there is nothing wrong at all with voting for a party on the basis that they have the best chance of winning and are a less worse choice than the incumbent MP? One of the reasons the Conservatives have been in government so often is that centre left or left leaning parties tend to split the vote. Certainly in my constituency the best chance of getting the Tory out is to vote Labour and for those that would have voted Green or Lib Dem to "lend" their votes to Labour on this occasion. Otherwise the result will be the Tory remains in power, with less than 45% of the vote.

This time around with reform and Independents standing, there is a few thousand votes needed to topple the Tory - any sensible person will therefore vote for the next best thing, otherwise they are wasting their vote.

Not everyone’s as desperate as yourself Swale, I’ll stick to my principles which I recall sent you into a spin when I explained them in 2019

[Andy_Faber]

Not really…I think you’re being a bit pedantic there. Criteria may be defined as a standard by which something is judged.
If, by the time of the next election, those things I’ve mentioned, together with policing, our rivers/general water and sewage management and transport infrastructure haven’t improved, then Labour, if elected in July, will be judged accordingly. I don’t doubt that there are other more complex economic matters which I don’t fully understand…but then neither do the vast majority and I’ll guarantee that I’ve given it more thought than most.

So I take it from your comments that you will only vote for a party that guarantees to INCREASE you personal tax burden?

[ramAnag]

With respect, AF, you don’t half let yourself down sometimes. We’re having an intelligent and respectful debate, for once, and then you put up two ludicrous and provocative posts like the last two.

What’s ‘desperate’ about Swale’s post? He’s just explained his logic behind tactical voting. You clearly disagree but you can’t fault the reasoning.

As for I’ll ‘only vote for a party that guarantees to INCREASE my personal tax burden’. Of course not…I’m just adult enough to recognise that decent services - which are the bedrock of society - have to be paid for. Even you’ve recognised that in this debate.
‘Properly targeted taxes’ I’ve consistently said…if my possibly increased taxes go up to fund better hospitals, surgeries, care homes and schools etc I’ll support it. If my taxes go up to pay for Farage’s EU pension and give a lifetime six figure salary to a lying PM who disgraced the country and another who wrecked the economy…not so keen!

[Andy_Faber]

With respect, AF, you don’t half let yourself down sometimes. We’re having an intelligent and respectful debate, for once, and then you put up two ludicrous and provocative posts like the last two.

What’s ‘desperate’ about Swale’s post? He’s just explained his logic behind tactical voting. You clearly disagree but you can’t fault the reasoning.

As for I’ll ‘only vote for a party that guarantees to INCREASE my personal tax burden’. Of course not…I’m just adult enough to recognise that decent services - which are the bedrock of society - have to be paid for. Even you’ve recognised that in this debate.
‘Properly targeted taxes’ I’ve consistently said…if my possibly increased taxes go up to fund better hospitals, surgeries, care homes and schools etc I’ll support it. If my taxes go up to pay for Farage’s EU pension and give a lifetime six figure salary to a lying PM who disgraced the country and another who wrecked the economy…not so keen!

I don’t need lecturing on my posts thanks rA, my question to you was a serious one, because at present I don’t see you have a sensible choice as they all seem keen to reduce tax.

And Swale IS clearly desperate to remove the conservatives whereas I have a different approach

And (my memory doesn’t fail me on this) Swale was incredulous in 2019 that I used broadly the same approach to deciding where my tick went

- and NB you seem to have your rear gun out again

[ramAnag]

I don’t need lecturing on my posts thanks rA, my question to you was a serious one, because at present I don’t see you have a sensible choice as they all seem keen to reduce tax.

And Swale IS clearly desperate to remove the conservatives whereas I have a different approach

And (my memory doesn’t fail me on this) Swale was incredulous in 2019 that I used broadly the same approach to deciding where my tick went

- and NB you seem to have your rear gun out again

‘Rear gun?’ Really? It’s a forum.
The two regular contributors I invariably agree with on here are MA and mac and yet strangely no one ever makes the same accusation.
Sometimes I agree with Swale - often even where politics is concerned - sometimes I agree with you…end of.
Blimey…there’s been times when I’ve agreed with GP and I think I might even have agreed with TTR a couple of times.
Get over yourself. It’s not a loyalty contest, it’s a discussion…don’t take things so personally.