Election Year or Fear!

[swaledale]

"I'm sure there are a number of left wing or left of centre research/ pressure groups. None of them however seem to have the influence exerted by 55."

Given that the last 14 years have seen a Tory government it is unsurprising to see those pressure groups have exerted influence. I'm sure in the years of the Blair-Brown axis that left wing think tanks influenced their policy.

I

So you think the influence stops when the Tories are out? Where do you think such agendas as privatise the NHS, bring in an insurance system as spouted by Farage and others comes from?

Do you actually think that the battery of paid lobbyists and so called think tanks aren't both repeating right wing aims into the ears of Starmer, Sweeting etc. Do you think they don't spend money on freebies for whoever is in power to gain traction for some of their ideas? Don't you understand that the way the right works is to repeat certain ideas, to spread disinformation repeatedly so that it becomes a familiar sound in people's ears, such that their views start to think, yes of course the NHS needs to be partly or wholly privatised, of course its in a mess due to immigrants ,excess demand (I mean nothing to do with chronic mismanagement, constant reviews and underfunding by the last government obviously!).

That regulation needs to be loosened to "promote" entrepreneurs, that employment laws are too strict, that the problem with lack of social housing is immigrants (even funnily enough in places like Clacton where the population is 92% white British, but hey repeat these ideas and lies often enough and the simpletons will believe it.

I actually thought you had more understanding than what your actually demonstrating, its not a black and white. left or right thing, not that in all honesty you could call Starmer's labour party left wing, you'd be pushed to say it was centre left and very possibly its on the same political axis as a One Nation Tory party.

[Trickytreesreds]

Someone needs to re explain the asylum boats then to the population?

https://www.tbsnews.net/bangladesh/no-provision-asylum-after-travelling-britain-uk-home-office-tells-ndtv-910856

[Andy_Faber]

Don't you understand that the way the right works is to repeat certain ideas, to spread disinformation repeatedly so that it becomes a familiar sound in people's ears, such that their views start to think...

'The Right' and 'The Left' both do this, and ironically both do it for the sake of minorities, the only difference being The right's minority is rich and The Left's minority is poor. But don't kid yourself its not practised by both 'sides', and I would suggest that unless one is in the upper decile or lower decile of wealth in the country, one is onto a loser if either prevail

[swaledale]

'The Right' and 'The Left' both do this, and ironically both do it for the sake of minorities, the only difference being The right's minority is rich and The Left's minority is poor. But don't kid yourself its not practised by both 'sides', and I would suggest that unless one is in the upper decile or lower decile of wealth in the country, one is onto a loser if either prevail

Lets get real here, there are very few billionaires or pressure groups with the financial clout and influence that those right of centre have, anywhere in world politics. Very few are espousing or pushing forward "left wing" ideas and those that are are generally small groups with little sign of influence.

If you think otherwise then name me those people and/or think tanks and organisations that are so effective for the left! Oh yes I know there are some Unions and other orgs that have a bias towards the left, not all are much more than left of centre though, there is simply no comparison compared with the amount of money and influence that the libertarian mid to far right groups have.

It makes me chuckle when I see the democrats in the US described as left or socialists, mm really? Look at their backers, the best they can be described as is centrists who acknowledge that capitalism needs to have a compassionate side.

I mean clearly from what your claiming, there firstly would be a more even split between Labour (notionally left and Conservative periods in government. Secondly there would not be this obvious and well documented drift towards right wing policies and governments, both within the UK and indeed mostly elsewhere in the world.

We are all losers when far right themes become the norm, except of course those rich enough to be immune from the effects, which is why they push the themes, hoping to profit from the chaos, but in any event insulated from the worst impact. I can't quite work out why the poorest would be losers in the event of the far left prevailing but then that is very unlikely in any case and in those nations where it has happened the human tendency to use power for power's sake has tended to unravel whatever good intentions might have been there. But IF Corbyn had been PM would it have been worse for anybody, except perhaps those very rich, than Johnson, Truss and Sunak have been?

I mean even Police Chiefs (not known) for their leftish tendencies, state that the far right is the biggest threat to order in the UK and have been doing for a while.

[Andy_Faber]

Lets get real here, there are very few billionaires or pressure groups with the financial clout and influence that those right of centre have, anywhere in world politics. Very few are espousing or pushing forward "left wing" ideas and those that are are generally small groups with little sign of influence.

If you think otherwise then name me those people and/or think tanks and organisations that are so effective for the left! Oh yes I know there are some Unions and other orgs that have a bias towards the left, not all are much more than left of centre though, there is simply no comparison compared with the amount of money and influence that the libertarian mid to far right groups have.

It makes me chuckle when I see the democrats in the US described as left or socialists, mm really? Look at their backers, the best they can be described as is centrists who acknowledge that capitalism needs to have a compassionate side.

I mean clearly from what your claiming, there firstly would be a more even split between Labour (notionally left and Conservative periods in government. Secondly there would not be this obvious and well documented drift towards right wing policies and governments, both within the UK and indeed mostly elsewhere in the world.

We are all losers when far right themes become the norm, except of course those rich enough to be immune from the effects, which is why they push the themes, hoping to profit from the chaos, but in any event insulated from the worst impact. I can't quite work out why the poorest would be losers in the event of the far left prevailing but then that is very unlikely in any case and in those nations where it has happened the human tendency to use power for power's sake has tended to unravel whatever good intentions might have been there. But IF Corbyn had been PM would it have been worse for anybody, except perhaps those very rich, than Johnson, Truss and Sunak have been?

I mean even Police Chiefs (not known) for their leftish tendencies, state that the far right is the biggest threat to order in the UK and have been doing for a while.

You’ve applied your own bias/leanings to my comments, I didn’t offer any weightings regarding resources put in or effectiveness arising.

You misunderstood or I wasn’t clear about who would be better/worse off, my belief is that neither left or right are bothered about the middle 80% by wealth

[ramAnag]

Lets get real here, there are very few billionaires or pressure groups with the financial clout and influence that those right of centre have, anywhere in world politics. Very few are espousing or pushing forward "left wing" ideas and those that are are generally small groups with little sign of influence.

If you think otherwise then name me those people and/or think tanks and organisations that are so effective for the left! Oh yes I know there are some Unions and other orgs that have a bias towards the left, not all are much more than left of centre though, there is simply no comparison compared with the amount of money and influence that the libertarian mid to far right groups have.

It makes me chuckle when I see the democrats in the US described as left or socialists, mm really? Look at their backers, the best they can be described as is centrists who acknowledge that capitalism needs to have a compassionate side.

I mean clearly from what your claiming, there firstly would be a more even split between Labour (notionally left and Conservative periods in government. Secondly there would not be this obvious and well documented drift towards right wing policies and governments, both within the UK and indeed mostly elsewhere in the world.

We are all losers when far right themes become the norm, except of course those rich enough to be immune from the effects, which is why they push the themes, hoping to profit from the chaos, but in any event insulated from the worst impact. I can't quite work out why the poorest would be losers in the event of the far left prevailing but then that is very unlikely in any case and in those nations where it has happened the human tendency to use power for power's sake has tended to unravel whatever good intentions might have been there. But IF Corbyn had been PM would it have been worse for anybody, except perhaps those very rich, than Johnson, Truss and Sunak have been?

I mean even Police Chiefs (not known) for their leftish tendencies, state that the far right is the biggest threat to order in the UK and have been doing for a while.

At the risk of AF, GP and, above all, TTR immediately reaching for the tiresome ‘rear gunner’ tactic…I have to say that I can only agree with all of that.
As you all know, Swale and I spent half of last season ‘bitching’ at each other so we don’t always see eye to eye, but on this issue I can only say that I agree entirely with the above and that it makes perfect sense…to me. I’ll also add that there is nothing wrong with agreeing with someone on a forum.

AF…genuine question and not getting at you at all, but you regularly speak of your Christian values and have occasionally referred to yourself as a sort of voice of practising Christianity on here.
With that in mind do you believe that Jesus Christ would have been more ‘left’ or ‘right’ leaning?

I ask only because, while I have little time for ANY organised religion, I do firmly believe that the examples set by Jesus are
very much of a left wing persuasion.

[swaledale]

You’ve applied your own bias/leanings to my comments, I didn’t offer any weightings regarding resources put in or effectiveness arising.

You misunderstood or I wasn’t clear about who would be better/worse off, my belief is that neither left or right are bothered about the middle 80% by wealth

But in my reply to GP didn't deny that there were left influencers, I was pointing out that the pernicious influence of the right didn't stop when a Labour Government was in power (in point of fact it more than likely increases).

So your post was basically superfluous, because I was addressing the immense influence and subtle power of the right and indeed far right compared to the left.

[Geoff Parkstone]

At the risk of AF, GP and, above all, TTR immediately reaching for the tiresome ‘rear gunner’ tactic…I have to say that I can only agree with all of that.
As you all know, Swale and I spent half of last season ‘bitching’ at each other so we don’t always see eye to eye, but on this issue I can only say that I agree entirely with the above and that it makes perfect sense…to me. I’ll also add that there is nothing wrong with agreeing with someone on a forum.

AF…genuine question and not getting at you at all, but you regularly speak of your Christian values and have occasionally referred to yourself as a sort of voice of practising Christianity on here.
With that in mind do you believe that Jesus Christ would have been more ‘left’ or ‘right’ leaning?

I ask only because, while I have little time for ANY organised religion, I do firmly believe that the examples set by Jesus are
very much of a left wing persuasion.

Ach come on rA you know he'd have voted Monster Raving Loony Party...or maybe UKIP in an attempt to get the Italian immigrants out of his country.

[Andy_Faber]

AF…genuine question and not getting at you at all, but you regularly speak of your Christian values and have occasionally referred to yourself as a sort of voice of practising Christianity on here.
With that in mind do you believe that Jesus Christ would have been more ‘left’ or ‘right’ leaning?

I ask only because, while I have little time for ANY organised religion, I do firmly believe that the examples set by Jesus are
very much of a left wing persuasion.

Always happy to (try to) answer a question like that. Of course he (or the many fellahs who’s stories have been collected as if they were all from a single bloke) predated modern political demarcation by about 17 centuries, but if you want to label him IMO he was more left than right in terms of economics and social justice, but I’d put the bible as a whole as just right of centre, New Testament left, Old Testament right.

I could talk about the contradictions of it all for days but this DEFINITELY isnt the place!

[Geoff Parkstone]

"With that in mind do you believe that Jesus Christ would have been more ‘left’ or ‘right’ leaning?"

Although I guess that the real answer to right or left leaning would depend on whether the nails were put in on the level or aslant....

[ramAnag]

Always happy to (try to) answer a question like that. Of course he (or the many fellahs who’s stories have been collected as if they were all from a single bloke) predated modern political demarcation by about 17 centuries, but if you want to label him IMO he was more left than right in terms of economics and social justice, but I’d put the bible as a whole as just right of centre, New Testament left, Old Testament right.

I could talk about the contradictions of it all for days but this DEFINITELY isnt the place!

Thank you. I was thinking in terms of ‘economics and social justice’ and I am quite happy to include Jesus amongst my short list of personal heroes and ‘role models’.

Again without in any way having a go, as someone who is, I think, much further to the Right - though a long way from the ‘far Right’ - how do you then remain comfortable labelling yourself a Christian?

I certainly don’t always live up to it, but I’d argue that my view of the world is considerably more ‘Christian’ than yours. Even Swale seems more closely aligned - in terms of economics and social justice - to the teachings/example of Jesus, although he’d probably call himself a ‘****ing Christian’.

P.S. Good to see, from a continued distance, that the decent people of the country appeared to stand up against the fascists and racists last night. Count me in on that one.

[Ramshank72]

Noah's arc story of God ethnic cleansing people he didn't like, and sod all the innocent that get caught up in it, is a good example of left wing extremism.

[ramAnag]

No expert

[ramAnag]

Noah's arc story of God ethnic cleansing people he didn't like, and sod all the innocent that get caught up in it, is a good example of left wing extremism.

No expert on the Bible, RS…but isn’t Noah’s Ark from the Old Testament and therefore what AF broadly refers to as Right wing? I thought it was just a bit of a parable to reinforce the authoritarian God…i.e. ‘do as you’re told or else’.

[MadAmster]

Isn't the OT, as well as being full of contradiction (Genesis I and II for starters), very similar in tone to the Koran and the Torah? I've always thought so.