Election Year or Fear!

[swaledale]

I won't answer cynically as I don't know the answer. Don't blame the child blame the parent(s) - but other then taking children into care, is there a solution? There likely isn't enough capacity in the foster/adoption system to deal with it - and most of those in IVF process want a fresh one of their own rather than a compromised "used" one.

Long term the solution has to be the education of the parents into contraception and managing childcare sensibly. But how? There are differing standards of care provision - how do you educate people that a healthy diet and avoidance of obesity means "real food" not fast food: especially when the parents themselves are of the McDonalds generation. Am I (we) guilty of imposing middle class values on this as we were lucky enough to have better.

But it will only get worse as the next generation who are comfortable taking knives to school start to breed. I feel sad for future generations who have little going on for themselves and still less to look forward to

Well you sound like my late Father, what is it about some over 60's that makes them have a blanket assumption that things in "their day" were better and the current generation is wayward/ doomed/ idle/incompetent and that the future is grim?

Is it something that affects certain people's minds, like the tendency to vote conservative or forget all the state funded education etc. etc. that our generation was in receipt of?

The next generation won't be comfortable taking knives to school. the majority aren't now. The issues of obesity affect all classes and income levels and are certainly not confined to one socio economic group.

Middle class values - mm are we imposing excessive levels of alcohol consumption on the poor then, given that the majority of "problem" drinkers, that is those who consume too much are what you would term middle class?

As for your anecdotal claims of poor people having children merely to get a larger social house and other such wheezes that they apparently get up to play the system. Yes it undoubtedly happens, though can you blame people whose lives are a struggle to survive using whatever wheeze to get by? However, its certainly not the majority and has been a "tale" going back years and generally reveals a level of looking down on those considered inferior.

Notably where are the tales of tax dodging that goes on to an extreme amount? The tales of undocumented immigrants used as staff, nannys, house keepers etc. by the very wealthy? Where are the wringing of hands over the cash in hand economy so beloved of the middle and upper classes so avoiding VAT, the self employed tax dodges etc. etc.?

Given that illegally unpaid tax vastly exceeds benefit fraud, one might think there is more to look at amongst the more well off in society?

This does smack of someone who reads rather to many papers that are filled with such nonsense, rather than an understanding of the true picture but I mean your far to intelligent to fall for blanket assumptions I'm sure.

[swaledale]

Well you sound like my late Father, what is it about some over 60's that makes them have a blanket assumption that things in "their day" were better and the current generation is wayward/ doomed/ idle/incompetent and that the future is grim?

Is it something that affects certain people's minds, like the tendency to vote conservative or forget all the state funded education etc. etc. that our generation was in receipt of?

The next generation won't be comfortable taking knives to school. the majority aren't now. The issues of obesity affect all classes and income levels and are certainly not confined to one socio economic group.

Middle class values - mm are we imposing excessive levels of alcohol consumption on the poor then, given that the majority of "problem" drinkers, that is those who consume too much are what you would term middle class?

As for your anecdotal claims of poor people having children merely to get a larger social house and other such wheezes that they apparently get up to play the system. Yes it undoubtedly happens, though can you blame people whose lives are a struggle to survive using whatever wheeze to get by? However, its certainly not the majority and has been a "tale" going back years and generally reveals a level of looking down on those considered inferior.

Notably where are the tales of tax dodging that goes on to an extreme amount? The tales of undocumented immigrants used as staff, nannys, house keepers etc. by the very wealthy? Where are the wringing of hands over the cash in hand economy so beloved of the middle and upper classes so avoiding VAT, the self employed tax dodges etc. etc.?

Given that illegally unpaid tax vastly exceeds benefit fraud, one might think there is more to look at amongst the more well off in society?

This does smack of someone who reads rather to many papers that are filled with such nonsense, rather than an understanding of the true picture but I mean your far to intelligent to fall for blanket assumptions I'm sure.

I mean if people had this attitude in WW", the country would have been ****ed!!

[SithHappens]

Well you sound like my late Father, what is it about some over 60's that makes them have a blanket assumption that things in "their day" were better and the current generation is wayward/ doomed/ idle/incompetent and that the future is grim?

Is it something that affects certain people's minds, like the tendency to vote conservative or forget all the state funded education etc. etc. that our generation was in receipt of?

The next generation won't be comfortable taking knives to school. the majority aren't now. The issues of obesity affect all classes and income levels and are certainly not confined to one socio economic group.

Middle class values - mm are we imposing excessive levels of alcohol consumption on the poor then, given that the majority of "problem" drinkers, that is those who consume too much are what you would term middle class?

As for your anecdotal claims of poor people having children merely to get a larger social house and other such wheezes that they apparently get up to play the system. Yes it undoubtedly happens, though can you blame people whose lives are a struggle to survive using whatever wheeze to get by? However, its certainly not the majority and has been a "tale" going back years and generally reveals a level of looking down on those considered inferior.

Notably where are the tales of tax dodging that goes on to an extreme amount? The tales of undocumented immigrants used as staff, nannys, house keepers etc. by the very wealthy? Where are the wringing of hands over the cash in hand economy so beloved of the middle and upper classes so avoiding VAT, the self employed tax dodges etc. etc.?

Given that illegally unpaid tax vastly exceeds benefit fraud, one might think there is more to look at amongst the more well off in society?

This does smack of someone who reads rather to many papers that are filled with such nonsense, rather than an understanding of the true picture but I mean your far to intelligent to fall for blanket assumptions I'm sure.

I find it amazing how people will (rightly) complain about companies like Amazon legally avoiding tax but condone the cash in hand tax dodgers.

When you think about all the small businesses or sole traders up and down the country taking cash for many of their jobs and not declaring it it must rival or exceed the taxes Amazon etc avoid.

I know several people who regularly take cash in hand.

We aren't talking a few quid, we are talking thousands in unpaid taxes from single individuals.

They even openly talked about it thinking it's just, not thinking that for every £1 they don't pay it costs me and everyone else paying tax a little bit.

That said I'm guilty of enabling it myself when I've been offered a discount to pay cash, and I've done it. If I was true to my beliefs I'd refuse but I doubt many of us do.

I suppose I justify it as I'm still not the one committing an offence. But it still wrong.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I find it amazing how people will (rightly) complain about companies like Amazon legally avoiding tax but condone the cash in hand tax dodgers.

When you think about all the small businesses or sole traders up and down the country taking cash for many of their jobs and not declaring it it must rival or exceed the taxes Amazon etc avoid.

I know several people who regularly take cash in hand.

We aren't talking a few quid, we are talking thousands in unpaid taxes from single individuals.

They even openly talked about it thinking it's just, not thinking that for every £1 they don't pay it costs me and everyone else paying tax a little bit.

That said I'm guilty of enabling it myself when I've been offered a discount to pay cash, and I've done it. If I was true to my beliefs I'd refuse but I doubt many of us do.

I suppose I justify it as I'm still not the one committing an offence. But it still wrong.

Technically, if it's VAT that you are avoiding (and you "know it") you are committing an offense - but for income tax you're.not - just aiding and abetting. And I'm just the same: discount for cash still works.

[Andy_Faber]

Sith you are making a point which won’t endear you to some here who believe big business/‘the rich’ are the greater culprits. I tend to agree with you you for the simple reason that my small band of tradesman brothers who all do business with me on invoice find it harder and harder to win business against cash only traders

[ramAnag]

Sith you are making a point which won’t endear you to some here who believe big business/‘the rich’ are the greater culprits. I tend to agree with you you for the simple reason that my small band of tradesman brothers who all do business with me on invoice find it harder and harder to win business against cash only traders

Except that he spoiled it by admitting that, although he disapproves, he benefits from paying in cash on occasions too.
Same goes for Parky who gave me all sorts of grief years ago for conceding that I paid a mate in cash for joinery work but now admits to also benefiting from reduced rates for cash.
I guess the ‘little people’ are just following the example of ‘the rich’ and big business. Not right…but maybe understandable.

[Andy_Faber]

Except that he spoiled it by admitting that, although he disapproves, he benefits from paying in cash on occasions too.
Same goes for Parky who gave me all sorts of grief years ago for conceding that I paid a mate in cash for joinery work but now admits to also benefiting from reduced rates for cash.
I guess the ‘little people’ are just following the example of ‘the rich’ and big business. Not right…but maybe understandable.

That’s irrelevant to the strength of their argument, just makes them human

[ramAnag]

That’s irrelevant to the strength of their argument, just makes them human

May make them/us all ‘human’ but it’s never ‘irrelevant’ when we can’t live up to the expectations/standards we advocate.

[SithHappens]

May make them/us all ‘human’ but it’s never ‘irrelevant’ when we can’t live up to the expectations/standards we advocate.

I think I pretty much admitted by saying I enable it.

Tough one isn't it, what do you do? refuse to pay cash knowing what is going on?

I actually do feel more comfortable when someone comes to do work and invoices me and I pay by card or bank transfer. I'd never ask for a discount for cash but I dunno, if I'm quoted 1000 by a decorator etc for a job, or 800 if I pay cash what do you do?

I'd bet the vast majority of people would pay cash.

More often than not cash is asked for with no offer of a discount, what do we do then? Refuse and find someone who will invoice me?

The few hundred quid I've saved in my lifetime is nothing compared with what people I know avoid on a regular basis.

But you are right, if we all refused and demanded to pay in full and by bank transfer etc it would solve the problem.

I do think it's ok to criticise those who actively seek out methods to avoid paying tax even if the consequence of them doing so saves me a few quid every few years or so.

To be honest I reckon it must be 6 or 7 years since I got a discount for cash for facia replacement.

My mate has thousands sitting around his house because he takes cash most weeks. He can't bank it because there becomes a paper trail.

He hardly pays any tax, what with taking cash in hand and then putting personal non work related items against his tax return.

I hate using cash, even more so since covid. It's a pain when someone demands cash for a job, means I've got to go and get it. Bloody nuisance.

[Geoff Parkstone]

There could soon be an end to the "tax free cash payments" in that cash is used so infrequently nowadays. With the shift of retail to online and indeed several physical shops I've visited recently declining cash, it will be easier to spot the cash withdrawals by Joe Public - and harder for said Joe to explain it

[SithHappens]

There could soon be an end to the "tax free cash payments" in that cash is used so infrequently nowadays. With the shift of retail to online and indeed several physical shops I've visited recently declining cash, it will be easier to spot the cash withdrawals by Joe Public - and harder for said Joe to explain it

Big increase in places that are card only yes. When we were in London recently pretty much every bar we went in was like that.

I'm all for it.

Add to that my card reward scheme is very good, we have had quite a few free hotel stays off the back of it.

[ramAnag]

I think I pretty much admitted by saying I enable it.

Tough one isn't it, what do you do? refuse to pay cash knowing what is going on?

I actually do feel more comfortable when someone comes to do work and invoices me and I pay by card or bank transfer. I'd never ask for a discount for cash but I dunno, if I'm quoted 1000 by a decorator etc for a job, or 800 if I pay cash what do you do?

I'd bet the vast majority of people would pay cash.

More often than not cash is asked for with no offer of a discount, what do we do then? Refuse and find someone who will invoice me?

The few hundred quid I've saved in my lifetime is nothing compared with what people I know avoid on a regular basis.

But you are right, if we all refused and demanded to pay in full and by bank transfer etc it would solve the problem.

I do think it's ok to criticise those who actively seek out methods to avoid paying tax even if the consequence of them doing so saves me a few quid every few years or so.

To be honest I reckon it must be 6 or 7 years since I got a discount for cash for facia replacement.

My mate has thousands sitting around his house because he takes cash most weeks. He can't bank it because there becomes a paper trail.

He hardly pays any tax, what with taking cash in hand and then putting personal non work related items against his tax return.

I hate using cash, even more so since covid. It's a pain when someone demands cash for a job, means I've got to go and get it. Bloody nuisance.

Not saying I’m any better, Sith. Off to Spain for a month tomorrow, carrying a load of cash because that’s what the Spanish owners, who we now know well, of our main destination in the south expect. Many of the Andalusians have scant respect for the law makers in Madrid and stick to a ‘back pocket’ economy when the opportunity arises.

This ‘mate’ of yours with the ‘thousands sitting around his house…’ . You don’t have his address do you?

[SithHappens]

Paying cash to get a discount was certainly something my parents were very used to.

My dad still can't get his head around the fact its often cheaper to buy something like a car on finance than pay in full.

[swaledale]

Not saying I’m any better, Sith. Off to Spain for a month tomorrow, carrying a load of cash because that’s what the Spanish owners, who we now know well, of our main destination in the south expect. Many of the Andalusians have scant respect for the law makers in Madrid and stick to a ‘back pocket’ economy when the opportunity arises.

This ‘mate’ of yours with the ‘thousands sitting around his house…’ . You don’t have his address do you?

The point of course is that much as people tend to denigrate those who "cheat" the benefit system or whatever, there is an equal amount of "cheating" or perhaps "getting by" practised by the more comfortably off and indeed those who are very wealthy. Yet its those at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale who get the the most flak!

That infamous Cameron quote about the hard workers who may be upset by their neighbours lying in on a morning because they weren't working. Being brought up on a Council estate there were plenty of those and other scams being practised, Guinness labels as car tax stickers being one I recall. Funnily enough, it wasn't a life style I ever contemplated, nor did I ever feel envious or pissed off that others in my peer group who mucked around at school or led a "life on the dole". I wanted something better in life than what they had and was happy to work for it.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Did you achieve it?