OT - Manchester again.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Hang on a minute, proscribing an organisation is about terrorist organisations, not those whose activities might on occasion involve breaking the law. There are existing laws which are more than enough to deal with people who cause criminal damage.

I've not seen any evidence that the stated aims of PA are breaking the law and criminal damage, but in the history of protest, there has always been (often for justified reasons) protest groups that have engaged in law breaking.

Lets face it governments often ignore or side line protests, or society is such that it takes something dramatic to actually change views and bring about change. Personally I admire people who are prepared to risk their freedom for a just cause.

But I guess in the Suffragettes time you'd have been happy to see them proscribed and described them as ****s?

Or maybe the Kinder trespassers should have been proscribed?

I guess The Levellers, those at the Peterloo Massacre and Anti Apartheid protests, are also according to your way of thinking?

Remarkably short sighted and bizarre thinking on your part.

It wasnt me who proscribed it - it was your mate two tier, the tool makers son. On 5 July 2025, following the security breach at RAF Brize Norton and vandalism of a plane.

The following quotes from the proscribing order approved by 2TS:

"Palestine Action is a pro-Palestinian group with the stated aim to support Palestinian
sovereignty by using direct criminal action tactics to halt the sale and export of
military equipment to Israel. Since its inception in 2020, Palestine Action has
orchestrated a nationwide campaign of direct criminal action against businesses and
institutions, including key national infrastructure and defence firms that provide
services and supplies to support Ukraine, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation
(NATO), “Five Eyes” allies and the UK defence enterprise. Palestine Action has also
broadened its targets from the defence industry to include financial firms, charities,
universities and government buildings. Its activity has increased in frequency and
severity since the start of 2024 and its methods have become more aggressive, with its
members demonstrating a willingness to use violence. Its activities meet the threshold
of being concerned in terrorism as set out in the Terrorism Act 2000."

Im not sure how more clear you want it expressed - unless of course its the far right wing media that 2TS is now under the influence of?

Remarkably short sighted and bizarre lack of knowledge on your part.

[Andy_Faber]

Perhaps you might avoid posts that make you look silly?

See GP?s response on your one-eyed comment. You don?t think your comments through very well do you?

[Andy_Faber]

I've not seen any evidence that the stated aims of PA are breaking the law and criminal damage.

So you?re saying it?s ok for folk to cause terror / break the law so long as they say they?re going to do so? Nice one Swale

[MadAmster]

GP. What I miss is proportionality in the police reaction to Palestine Action demonstrations. The most, IMO, ridiculous arrest was that of an elderly blind gentleman. Arrested for holding up a sign saying "stop the genocide #Palestine Action".

Those who spray paint into aircraft engines need arresting, charging, taking to court and, if found guilty, give them a lengthy sentence and, if they are foreign nationals, declare them Persona Non Grata upon completion of their sentence.

Blind folk, vicars and others who are misguidedly putting PA on banners should be spoken to. Stop the Genocide is fine on a placard. Supporting PA is not and a repeat will see them charged.

Proportionate reactions are necessary, IMO.

[Geoff Parkstone]

GP. What I miss is proportionality in the police reaction to Palestine Action demonstrations. The most, IMO, ridiculous arrest was that of an elderly blind gentleman. Arrested for holding up a sign saying "stop the genocide #Palestine Action".

Those who spray paint into aircraft engines need arresting, charging, taking to court and, if found guilty, give them a lengthy sentence and, if they are foreign nationals, declare them Persona Non Grata upon completion of their sentence.

Blind folk, vicars and others who are misguidedly putting PA on banners should be spoken to. Stop the Genocide is fine on a placard. Supporting PA is not and a repeat will see them charged.

Proportionate reactions are necessary, IMO.

I wouldn't disagree with that MA. But I suspect that the Terrorism Act is very black and white in it's "rules" not leaving any grey areas for leniency.

In any event I imagine these protesters would be disappointed if they weren't arrested and become "martyrs for their cause". They must have known the outcome of publically displaying support for a terrorist organisation and so would have been prepared for their own arrests.

[Andy_Faber]

GP. What I miss is proportionality in the police reaction to Palestine Action demonstrations. The most, IMO, ridiculous arrest was that of an elderly blind gentleman. Arrested for holding up a sign saying "stop the genocide #Palestine Action".

Those who spray paint into aircraft engines need arresting, charging, taking to court and, if found guilty, give them a lengthy sentence and, if they are foreign nationals, declare them Persona Non Grata upon completion of their sentence.

Blind folk, vicars and others who are misguidedly putting PA on banners should be spoken to. Stop the Genocide is fine on a placard. Supporting PA is not and a repeat will see them charged.

Proportionate reactions are necessary, IMO.

Agreed on that

[ramAnag]

yet you happily lauded Kirk's assassaination since you didnt agree with his actions....

I don’t think Swale, or anyone else on here come to that, actually ‘lauded’ Kirk’s murder did they, GP?
Lauded suggests praise and admiration for the action and I don’t recall anyone going that far.
I think I commented ‘live by the gun laws, die by the gun laws’ which may be harsh, but it’s also true.
Maybe I’m mistaken, in which case I’ll apologise, or maybe you are…or just exaggerating again to fit your narrative, in which case perhaps you should.

[Geoff Parkstone]

reread and contextualise post 35 hereon

[MadAmster]

reread and contextualise post 35 hereon

I realise that was aimed at rA but I decided to read #35.

There's nothing in there lauding or applauding Kirk's death. No wallowing in it either.

Respect is earned, Swale is of the opinion Kirk didn't garner respect when alive so why give it to him in death? There will be people close to him that genuinely loved him, what we saw of him was a public aura of which there's not much to be proud, IMO. Was the private aura different? We'll never know.

That's my take on #35. I'd like to understand what it is in #35 that you want rA to re-read and contextualise?

[swaledale]

It wasnt me who proscribed it - it was your mate two tier, the tool makers son. On 5 July 2025, following the security breach at RAF Brize Norton and vandalism of a plane.

The following quotes from the proscribing order approved by 2TS:

"Palestine Action is a pro-Palestinian group with the stated aim to support Palestinian
sovereignty by using direct criminal action tactics to halt the sale and export of
military equipment to Israel. Since its inception in 2020, Palestine Action has
orchestrated a nationwide campaign of direct criminal action against businesses and
institutions, including key national infrastructure and defence firms that provide
services and supplies to support Ukraine, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation
(NATO), “Five Eyes” allies and the UK defence enterprise. Palestine Action has also
broadened its targets from the defence industry to include financial firms, charities,
universities and government buildings. Its activity has increased in frequency and
severity since the start of 2024 and its methods have become more aggressive, with its
members demonstrating a willingness to use violence. Its activities meet the threshold
of being concerned in terrorism as set out in the Terrorism Act 2000."

I'm not sure how more clear you want it expressed - unless of course its the far right wing media that 2TS is now under the influence of?

Remarkably short sighted and bizarre lack of knowledge on your part.

What's actually bizarre, is that you have completely failed to understand that I was referring to your comment that all such organisations should be proscribed and your whole hearted agreement to it. I at no time suggested you were responsible, just questioned why you thought it was a good thing.

Rather akin to your bizarre comment about Floyd regarding respecting the dead, which was irrelevant, given I'd been arguing that not all those that die necessarily attract respect and hadn't mentioned Floyd or expressly supported him.

So you have resorted to repeating inaccurate slogans pushed by right wing commentators and the media? I thought you had more intellectual capacity than to repeat such crap, but obviously not. The 2 tier slogan is a lie and can easily be proven to be so, by those with the ability to actually understand the justice system.

Kier is not "my mate" what a childish comment, I happen to think he is better than what else is on offer, but as I have posted before, there is much that him and his government can be criticised for, including the proscribing of PA.

For somebody who frequently claims that governments and others put out falsehoods, to quote their "reasons" for proscribing that organisation as if they represented the unvarnished truth is surprising. After all I do remember, as I'm sure you do, another Labour PM presenting a very detailed dossier on why there were Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq and justifying going to war on that basis.

As one who is clearly rather more cynical and less willing to accept what governments say than you appear to be (unless of course it accords with your own prejudices) my view and indeed that of many other people who are more connected to what's going on than me, it that it was a knee jerk reaction, politically motivated after being embarrassed that security at a military base was so poor, a group of amateur activists managed gain access and spray paint on some aircraft. Thank **** it wasn't some foreign power looking to attack UK military assets!!

In respect of PA, the actions that have been taken by that group, and again I do not approve of this, were limited to criminal damage, there have been no actual action taken against member's for violence and indeed of the information that is available, the vast majority of their activities have been very similar to that taken against businesses who were involved in supporting the anti apartheid regime in South Africa, albeit they have also engaged in criminal damage and there are adequate laws to deal with such activities the action to proscribe them is in mine and many other people's opinion an over reaction by the government, due to pressure from Israeli defence firm's and Israel
itself.

Its rather naïve of you to trot out what this government has put out to justify their action as "proof" of why they should have been proscribed, and rather amusing that having done so you accuse me of short sightedness and lack of knowledge!!

[swaledale]

So you?re saying it?s ok for folk to cause terror / break the law so long as they say they?re going to do so? Nice one Swale

NO and that's perfectly clear in my whole post, although clearly either your comprehension skills are lacking or you interpret what you read to align with your own dogma and blinkered thinking.

[swaledale]

yet you happily lauded Kirk's assassaination since you didnt agree with his actions....

No I ****ing didn't, I merely said I saw no reason to respect the man now he is dead, when I didn't respect him before.

That's repeating what's been pushed out by the right wing and MAGA lot in the US and Kimmel who was "cancelled" but now happily is back on air didn't "laud" Kirk's death either just made an observation that was fundamentally true.

[ramAnag]

I realise that was aimed at rA but I decided to read #35.

There's nothing in there lauding or applauding Kirk's death. No wallowing in it either.

Respect is earned, Swale is of the opinion Kirk didn't garner respect when alive so why give it to him in death? There will be people close to him that genuinely loved him, what we saw of him was a public aura of which there's not much to be proud, IMO. Was the private aura different? We'll never know.

That's my take on #35. I'd like to understand what it is in #35 that you want rA to re-read and contextualise?

Me too! Entirely agree. Unfortunately it is a repeated strategy of some on here to exaggerate and misrepresent.
Swale has neither lauded nor wallowed in Kirk’s death. He’s suggested that the fact that someone has died shouldn’t alter one’s opinion of them and, imo, he’s quite right.
Those who feel the need to misrepresent have usually lost the argument in my experience.

[Andy_Faber]

NO and that's perfectly clear in my whole post, although clearly either your comprehension skills are lacking or you interpret what you read to align with your own dogma and blinkered thinking.

What?s clear is you got caught out.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Me too! Entirely agree. Unfortunately it is a repeated strategy of some on here to exaggerate and misrepresent.
Swale has neither lauded nor wallowed in Kirk’s death. He’s suggested that the fact that someone has died shouldn’t alter one’s opinion of them and, imo, he’s quite right.
Those who feel the need to misrepresent have usually lost the argument in my experience.

Glad you've recovered from your arduous drive back from holidays (?) and good to see you nestled in the back seat again 😃😃