O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[magpie_mania]

I’ve seen some figures that say it’s only the top 10% of wealth/incomes that will be worse through budget measures. Of course if you voted for Brexit you still have to accept that sovereignty’ needs paying for.

There are two sides though. While income may not be reduced for most, expenditure will increase. The hike in NI for employers will raise the cost of goods.

That said, it wasn’t as bad as I thought it might be. I do wonder though if there is more to come.

[OchPie]

Not sure why energy (oil) companies were not hit in it unless there is a one off hit coming elsewhere.

The energy windfall tax went up from 35% to 38%.

Feel sorry for all the commentators sure this would be the most disastrous and inept budget of all time. Criticising someone for what you think they will do based on your own preconceptions and not what they actually do rarely turns out well.

You can quibble the details with any budget but it was a solid Labour budget, full of things the Tories would never do - and how angry that made them.

[LincsPie]

The energy windfall tax went up from 35% to 38%.

Feel sorry for all the commentators sure this would be the most disastrous and inept budget of all time. Criticising someone for what you think they will do based on your own preconceptions and not what they actually do rarely turns out well.

You can quibble the details with any budget but it was a solid Labour budget, full of things the Tories would never do - and how angry that made them.

No doubt some of those commentators were 'briefed' by those 'in the know' in the Westminster wine bars that reduced ISA limits, tax reliefs for higher taxpayers etc. were 'all on the table' but now those 'bad' things didn't come to fruition the perception is the budget 'wasn't so bad after all'. Smoke and mirrors as with all flavours of politicians.

[forwardmagpie]

The energy windfall tax went up from 35% to 38%.

Feel sorry for all the commentators sure this would be the most disastrous and inept budget of all time. Criticising someone for what you think they will do based on your own preconceptions and not what they actually do rarely turns out well.

You can quibble the details with any budget but it was a solid Labour budget, full of things the Tories would never do - and how angry that made them.

Yes who would have predicted a tax and spend budget from a labour government. If there is good growth (which I doubt) it may work if not it is a very risky gamble.

[OchPie]

Yes who would have predicted a tax and spend budget from a labour government. If there is good growth (which I doubt) it may work if not it is a very risky gamble.

Some of the changes made definitely won't show fruit over the course of the next parliament, but were still important.

Unfortunately I think the UK is going to struggle for growth too. But there's a lot that needs fixed before the UK is in any kind of shape for sustained growth. The budget was a small step in the right direction for that, but you can't solve a decade and a half of turning the UK to **** in a few months.

[forwardmagpie]

Some of the changes made definitely won't show fruit over the course of the next parliament, but were still important.

Unfortunately I think the UK is going to struggle for growth too. But there's a lot that needs fixed before the UK is in any kind of shape for sustained growth. The budget was a small step in the right direction for that, but you can't solve a decade and a half of turning the UK to **** in a few months.

We must disagree then, I think the budget is a large step in the wrong direction. If you run a business then this budget will likely change your plans for the next five years and growth (which would employ more people) won’t be as high on the agenda as it might have been.

[Notsohumblepie]

The energy windfall tax went up from 35% to 38%.

Feel sorry for all the commentators sure this would be the most disastrous and inept budget of all time. Criticising someone for what you think they will do based on your own preconceptions and not what they actually do rarely turns out well.

You can quibble the details with any budget but it was a solid Labour budget, full of things the Tories would never do - and how angry that made them.

Most of the preconceptions that you allude to were based upon contrived "leaks" . Good expectation management , but slightly devious never the less.

Having said that , they all do it.

[OchPie]

We must disagree then, I think the budget is a large step in the wrong direction. If you run a business then this budget will likely change your plans for the next five years and growth (which would employ more people) won’t be as high on the agenda as it might have been.

Very likely we do disagree!

From a quick read of the budget, I think if you're in the ~10-50 employee size then expanding a business might be quite difficult. I think either side of that, the budget encourages at least modest growth.

I also don't think we should underestimate the positive impact on running a business that having healthier employees waiting less time for medical care, having infrastructure that isn't falling apart, and having local services (from childcare to refuse collection) that actually work can have. Austerity acted as a huge drag on growth as people had to put more time into dealing with its en****tification of public services. Even just Labour's huge push on fixing potholes can have significant, if not always visible, benefits. Of course they have to deliver.

[OchPie]

Most of the preconceptions that you allude to were based upon contrived "leaks" . Good expectation management , but slightly devious never the less.

Some, but not all. A significant proportion was the right wing press whipping themselves into a frenzy - I suspect on the assumption that their attack lines would hold whether they matched reality or not.

I don't think we're there yet, thankfully. Still, it's telling that yet another chancellor didn't unfreeze fuel duty.

[BigFatPie]

Some, but not all. A significant proportion was the right wing press whipping themselves into a frenzy - I suspect on the assumption that their attack lines would hold whether they matched reality or not.

I don't think we're there yet, thankfully. Still, it's telling that yet another chancellor didn't unfreeze fuel duty.

I know raising fuel duty is very unpopular but I would have liked to have seen it go up a bit, if only to have then been able to keep £2 bus fares.

Making car travel a bit more expensive to make bus travel a bit cheaper seems like something a Labour government should do.

[forwardmagpie]

Very likely we do disagree!

From a quick read of the budget, I think if you're in the ~10-50 employee size then expanding a business might be quite difficult. I think either side of that, the budget encourages at least modest growth.

I also don't think we should underestimate the positive impact on running a business that having healthier employees waiting less time for medical care, having infrastructure that isn't falling apart, and having local services (from childcare to refuse collection) that actually work can have. Austerity acted as a huge drag on growth as people had to put more time into dealing with its en****tification of public services. Even just Labour's huge push on fixing potholes can have significant, if not always visible, benefits. Of course they have to deliver.

Your last sentence is the most telling, all the rest is what we all hope will happen.

[slack_pie]

The budget wasn't as bad as I thought it would be based on the Labour Party's own rhetoric. I was expecting capital gains tax rates to be brought in line with income tax rates, for example.

Anyway, I'm just glad I'm not a "working person". I guess I better go and enjoy my retirement then!

[MarcusCole]

I know raising fuel duty is very unpopular but I would have liked to have seen it go up a bit, if only to have then been able to keep £2 bus fares.

Making car travel a bit more expensive to make bus travel a bit cheaper seems like something a Labour government should do.

Yes because only the rich drive, the poor all use public transport. There are people out there where a car is essential as PT does not run near them or does not run at a time they need it to, such as those that work out of hours.

Also, Increasing fuel duty would put up the prices of everything, the distribution system will be hit with an increase in the costs of transporting goods, this will passed along the chain and will result in increased prices for pretty much everything.

Once again the lefty wants to hurt the poor because he can't think through an issue.

[SmiffyPie]

There are so many industrial estates that have no public transport links at all.

[BigFatPie]

Yes because only the rich drive, the poor all use public transport. There are people out there where a car is essential as PT does not run near them or does not run at a time they need it to, such as those that work out of hours.

Also, Increasing fuel duty would put up the prices of everything, the distribution system will be hit with an increase in the costs of transporting goods, this will passed along the chain and will result in increased prices for pretty much everything.

Once again the lefty wants to hurt the poor because he can't think through an issue.

Fuel prices are currently the same level as they were in 2011, so I’m sure you can probably work out that’s a fair bit of a cut in real terms. In that time the costs of public transport, and buses in particular, have gone up at a much faster rate. The poorest people generally tend to use buses so what we’ve done is taken money out of their pockets and put it into the hands of car drivers who are generally better off anyway.

You probably think climate change is a lefty conspiracy but there are all sorts of other good reasons why people should be encouraged out of their cars and onto public transport where possible. It didn’t have to be a particularly large increase, possibly just 1-2p a litre. If we always worried about tax increases being passed on in higher prices we would literally never raise taxes on business ever again.