O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[BigFatPie]

I'm pretty certain the Conservative Party membership have picked Kemi not for any 'trendy' reason but because she's the candidate who appears to have best and most consistently articulated idea of what Conservatives should actually stand for, and what they should oppose. Ideally she would have 5-10 years' experience before getting to this level, but as you say there's a dearth of quality politicians in general across all parties these days, so if you've got one who shows the potential to be great then you've got to run with them and let them learn on the job.

I’d hazard a guess that the only person Kemi Badenoch will be ‘great’ for is Keir Starmer.

There’s certainly a dearth of talent in the modern Tory party since Johnson and his ex mate Cummings booted out anyone with even half a brain.

[SinceSept1959]

I believe Starmer has much more conviction than the runner-up of the Tory leadership contest, but probably less than the winner. I do think he is absolutely ruthless in his dealings with others - which makes the own goals around his own gifts more frustrating, though I still think he is under far more scrutiny than the members of the last government were on this issue.

I am convinced that Starmer, like Blair, believes that ideological purity is secondary to the ability to get things done through the securing of power. I don't think Corbyn did, I think it made Miliband uncomfortable, and I think Badenoch will repeat their mistakes too.


As for burying news, well yes - all governments do this. Even so, I think there are some loudmouths on the right who prefer whipping up public anger to seeing someone nasty being convicted in a fair trial. I'm firmly on the other side of that. And as far as SYL is concerned, it is telling for me how so many of the "tough on crime" brigade suddenly want compassion in the justice system - but only for their favoured agitator.

Oh dear , oh dear.
Mentioning Blair and Starmer together says it all.
Scriptures warned of false prophets , the elation of the 1997 GE, after Thatcher was defeated , proved to be a case of " out of the frying pan , into the fire ! " Alas, history about to be repeated following the last GE ?
Both seem to have problems of expression, certainly in terms of manifesto promises and the definition of truth. ?
Words of Mass Deception spring to mind , resulting in the issues facing Europe since actions in the Middle East.
Actions speak louder than words and dictators come to power in many guises, as well as political labels and party colours.

[Lullapie]

As for burying news, well yes - all governments do this. Even so, I think there are some loudmouths on the right who prefer whipping up public anger to seeing someone nasty being convicted in a fair trial. I'm firmly on the other side of that. And as far as SYL is concerned, it is telling for me how so many of the "tough on crime" brigade suddenly want compassion in the justice system - but only for their favoured agitator.

Surely you don't believe the ONLY agitators are on the right of the political spectrum?

[OchPie]

Oh dear , oh dear.
Mentioning Blair and Starmer together says it all.
Scriptures warned of false prophets , the elation of the 1997 GE, after Thatcher was defeated , proved to be a case of " out of the frying pan , into the fire ! " Alas, history about to be repeated following the last GE ?
Both seem to have problems of expression, certainly in terms of manifesto promises and the definition of truth. ?
Words of Mass Deception spring to mind , resulting in the issues facing Europe since actions in the Middle East.
Actions speak louder than words and dictators come to power in many guises, as well as political labels and party colours.

I honestly don't have a clue what you are talking about, and I suspect you don't either.

Mentioning the last Labour PM to win an election in the same breath as the latest one - oh no, how could they possibly be linked?

Life got substantially better for the vast majority of the country under Blair and Brown, even if there remained clear issues and there were mistakes. As usual they handed over a mostly functional country to the Tories, who proceeded to asset strip and run down the place so that a few of their friends didn't have to pay as much tax.

Surely you don't believe the ONLY agitators are on the right of the political spectrum?

No, of course not. But in general those of us on the left accept that the JSO protestors (as an example) have to face the consequences of their actions. The right wants those protestors to face far harsher punishment while giving a free ride to all those it agrees with.

[i961pie]

[QUOTE=OchPie;40597891]




As usual they handed over a mostly functional country to the Tories, [QUOTE]

As usual? Were you around in 1979 when they left office with the country virtually bankcrupt?
And didn't they leave a note the last time saying something like best of luck we are broke or words to that effect.
Under Blair we did prosper for most of the time I agree but it didn't end well.

[Lullapie]

[QUOTE=i961pie;405978

As usual? Were you around in 1979 when they left office with the country virtually bankcrupt?
And didn't they leave a note the last time saying something like best of luck we are broke or words to that effect.
Under Blair we did prosper for most of the time I agree but it didn't end well.[/QUOTE]

There is a pattern with Labour. As they can’t generate wealth, they spend everything they inherit and then borrow and tax.

You tend to get 1 or 2 years of ‘prosperity’ then that’s followed by high inflation and recession as the following government has to deal with the aftermath.

[Med Pie]

On the Dawn Butler issue, in order to show that the playing field is level, she has to be 'de-whipped', a white man would have been de-selected and a file sent to the CPS.

[Med Pie]

No, of course not. But in general those of us on the left accept that the JSO protestors (as an example) have to face the consequences of their actions. The right wants those protestors to face far harsher punishment while giving a free ride to all those it agrees with.

No, they want parity, punishments relative to offence and criminal background and a genuinely independent judiciary, not taking cues from the PM. There is no way that shouting abuse, whatever the content, deserves almost three years in jail and all that will follow, loss of housing, employment etc.

Most of the people who were convicted, could probably appeal on the basis that they received ineffective representation. They should all have pleaded not guilty and insisted on their right to a trial by jury.

[Bohinen]

As usual? Were you around in 1979 when they left office with the country virtually bankcrupt?
And didn't they leave a note the last time saying something like best of luck we are broke or words to that effect.
Under Blair we did prosper for most of the time I agree but it didn't end well.

That quotation about best of luck, there's no money left, etc, as I understand it is what every new Chancellor finds in their in-tray when they take office, it's Chancellor bantz, an in-joke that these people seem to find amusing. If you think about the Chancellors we have had, they have more in common with other Chancellors than anyone in their own party. There is a type, people who take joy from fine details and complicating things as much as is humanely possible.

Re 1979, I don't remember it as being that bad. Like most people at the time, I was working and could afford to go on holidays and spend money, far more so than today. Mass unemployment came later in the 80s.

[PedroTheFisherman66]

There is a pattern with Labour. As they can’t generate wealth, they spend everything they inherit and then borrow and tax.

You tend to get 1 or 2 years of ‘prosperity’ then that’s followed by high inflation and recession as the following government has to deal with the aftermath.

They all leave that said "no money left " said letter..! Yes even( especially) the Tories x
Ooos sorry Bohenian, just seen your piece.still I'm leaving mine on.

[Notsohumblepie]

That quotation about best of luck, there's no money left, etc, as I understand it is what every new Chancellor finds in their in-tray when they take office, it's Chancellor bantz, an in-joke that these people seem to find amusing. If you think about the Chancellors we have had, they have more in common with other Chancellors than anyone in their own party. There is a type, people who take joy from fine details and complicating things as much as is humanely possible.

Re 1979, I don't remember it as being that bad. Like most people at the time, I was working and could afford to go on holidays and spend money, far more so than today. Mass unemployment came later in the 80s.

In 1979 the rate of inflation was 13.4 %. That was about 30 months after Dennis Healey signed a Letter of Intent to the IMF, committing to significant public expenditure cuts in return for a $3.9 billion loan.

Like most of us, when you look back on life, you only remember the sunny days. Don't worry we all do it.

[slack_pie]

I'm pretty certain the Conservative Party membership have picked Kemi not for any 'trendy' reason but because she's the candidate who appears to have best and most consistently articulated idea of what Conservatives should actually stand for, and what they should oppose. Ideally she would have 5-10 years' experience before getting to this level, but as you say there's a dearth of quality politicians in general across all parties these days, so if you've got one who shows the potential to be great then you've got to run with them and let them learn on the job.

This. From what I've seen, she's got strong views and is able to articulate them clearly. She's not another Kamala Harris appointment designed to appeal to certain demographics.

[OchPie]

As usual? Were you around in 1979 when they left office with the country virtually bankcrupt?
And didn't they leave a note the last time saying something like best of luck we are broke or words to that effect.
Under Blair we did prosper for most of the time I agree but it didn't end well.

It didn't end well but that was mostly the US crashing the global economy. The "no money left" letter was a private joke and tradition the Tories weaponised.

The winter of discontent was appalling. What happened next, it's hard to say it was better. Memories of being stopped just for driving and being male, by a police force you knew was ready to bash your head in.

There is a pattern with Labour. As they can’t generate wealth, they spend everything they inherit and then borrow and tax.

You tend to get 1 or 2 years of ‘prosperity’ then that’s followed by high inflation and recession as the following government has to deal with the aftermath.

If you think high inflation and recession haven't happened under the Tories, you have a very short memory.

No, they want parity, punishments relative to offence and criminal background and a genuinely independent judiciary, not taking cues from the PM. There is no way that shouting abuse, whatever the content, deserves almost three years in jail and all that will follow, loss of housing, employment etc.

Most of the people who were convicted, could probably appeal on the basis that they received ineffective representation. They should all have pleaded not guilty and insisted on their right to a trial by jury.

Most of them would have been convicted and got longer sentences as a result. Shouting abuse is one thing, but encouraging (or perpetrating) violence as the jailed protestors did is quite another thing. Strangely that seems to often get left out of the narratives around them.

We in this country take a dim view of encouraging murder.

In 1979 the rate of inflation was 13.4 %. That was about 30 months after Dennis Healey signed a Letter of Intent to the IMF, committing to significant public expenditure cuts in return for a $3.9 billion loan.

Inflation in 1980 was 18%. This was in part from Thatcher's government almost doubling the rate of VAT.

[SinceSept1959]

I honestly don't have a clue what you are talking about, and I suspect you don't either.

Mentioning the last Labour PM to win an election in the same breath as the latest one - oh no, how could they possibly be linked?

Life got substantially better for the vast majority of the country under Blair and Brown, even if there remained clear issues and there were mistakes. As usual they handed over a mostly functional country to the Tories, who proceeded to asset strip and run down the place so that a few of their friends didn't have to pay as much tax.




No, of course not. But in general those of us on the left accept that the JSO protestors (as an example) have to face the consequences of their actions. The right wants those protestors to face far harsher punishment while giving a free ride to all those it agrees with.

Really ?
I certainly understand having lived through those times and very hard times previously too.
I also understand and recollect historical events and facts , not the history, often rewritten to suit the Agenda.
I'm obviously much older than yourself, worked for what I have and wasn't subject to the indoctrination that passes for education and "uni" these days.
Life isn't much better these days for most working people. Thanks to Bliar in particular !
Don't forget that Brown trashed the economy, wrecked pension schemes and left the treasury float bankrupt ala Liam Byrne's I.O.U., not forgetting Foreign Policy calamities in The Middle East ??

Being a former staunch Trade Unionist Official, CLP Delegate and having met many politicians, my eyes were opened and I vowed never to vote Labour ever again.
Almost 30 years since, the calibre and hypocrisy of Labour and their candidates becomes progressively worse.


Wisdom comes with age and experience of life.
Most of us start out "on the left " with idealistic , utopian aspirations but end up very disappointed with the declining standards , morals and respect in this country, not withstanding the vast chasms between the super wealthy and those in poverty.

Maybe in time , you will realise that the system doesn't work for ordinary working people .
The working man being marginally better off under the Tories.
There are circa 9.5 million people in this country who won't or can't work.
Others therefore pick up the tab for their upkeep .

Remember the old saying
The Poor can't pay , The Rich won't pay so The working man has to pay !

[Elite_Pie]

Wisdom comes with age and experience of life. Most of us start out "on the left " with idealistic , utopian aspirations but end up very disappointed with the declining standards , morals and respect in this country, not withstanding the vast chasms between the super wealthy and those in poverty.

And you blame those "declining standards, morals and respect in this country, not withstanding the vast chasms between the super wealthy and those in poverty" on the Labour party????

For someone who claims to have wisdom, how did you manage to miss the destruction that 14 years of Tory rule did to this country?