O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[countygump]

Can't remember what the mechanism was without looking it up, but AZ wasn't MRNA, so probably won't carry the same long term risks if you didn't have a bad reaction in the weeks after having it.

The thing we forget now is that people were not considered vaccinated until three weeks or so after they'd had their first shot, so anybody hospitalised post shot in that time frame and needing ICU or dying would have been counted as unvaxxed.

Yebbutt, the other three I had were all pfizer.

[countygump]

Actually the last one I had was Moderna. Wife just told me so it must be right.

[upthemaggies]

Actually the last one I had was Moderna. Wife just told me so it must be right.

That was MRNA and 'stronger' than Pfizer, said to offer more protection.

If you're no spring chicken then I don't think it's worth worrying about, I'm not in the "everybody will be dropping dead in 3-5 years camp" I expect it will be more like the Atomic bomb test vets where the life altering or life ending levels of radiation they were exposed to didn't become apparent until many decades later. Of the people whose opinion I respect and listen to the most, most of them think it made some sense to offer them to older people, their concern is for the young. My eldest, having left home and old enough to make his own decision, had two - so he could go clubbing.

[Magpies1959]

I am one of those considered extremely vulnerable, and had the first three vaccine shots, before reading more about it and decided to take my chances. I have never had covid as far as I am aware (7 negative hospital tests), could have had it asymptomatically I guess. I was also very blase about masks and the two metre rule.
It was interesting to note that absolutely nothing was mentioned on the msm about T cells, leaving joe public to believe everyone was at danger of catching the deadly virus. Maybe they could have tested everyone to see who had T cells, thus allowing them to go about their daily business.

[Elite_Pie]

I was also very blase about masks and the two metre rule.

Why does that not surprise me?

Boris would be proud of you.

[upthemaggies]

I am one of those considered extremely vulnerable, and had the first three vaccine shots, before reading more about it and decided to take my chances. I have never had covid as far as I am aware (7 negative hospital tests), could have had it asymptomatically I guess. I was also very blase about masks and the two metre rule.
It was interesting to note that absolutely nothing was mentioned on the msm about T cells, leaving joe public to believe everyone was at danger of catching the deadly virus. Maybe they could have tested everyone to see who had T cells, thus allowing them to go about their daily business.

Yep, they basically pretended natural immunity didn't exist, it was bizarre and felt very sinister.

We shouldn't underestimate the impact stress levels and loneliness had on people's ability to deal with the virus either. Many died with, not of and I can imagine lots of people just gave up on life seeing no end to it with nothing to look forward to whilst others must have been literally scared to death by the hysterical advertising which the government later admitted went too far.

The hospitals could offer no treatment and there is a debate about whether or not putting people on ventilators was generally a good idea. How many people panicked and called 999 (thinking it was more deadly than it was) and lost their lives in hospitals when they might have made it staying at home being cared for by family? With a calmer and more mature approach all round, would the NHS have been any more overwhelmed? We can't answer that but it's by no means a given that taking a different approach would have led to a worse outcome.

If Covid had been 1968/69 rather than 2020/21 I doubt we'd be recalling Covid as anything much different in terms of the impact on society as Hong Kong Flu did back then.

[BanjoPie]

out of interest UTM, have you ever read the possible side effects from statins? - every medication has its possible side effects. vaccines are the same! - would you suggest that we stop giving the MMR vaccine to children because an extremely small number of children have been know to get rubella and meningitis as a result?

[countygump]

Why does that not surprise me?

Boris would be proud of you.

I still wear a mask, when I go shopping etc. I'm regularly wash my hands and even use wipes in between the times I'm able to do that. I've had Covid twice in the last 9 months.

I'd have to say though that I've had Common Colds that had much worse symptoms. All I experienced was a bit of a scratchy throat, bit of coughing, bit of achiness, symptoms gone after a few days though.

[i961pie]

I don't trust anything this government says or does, and can easily believe that many of them and their mates got very rich because of covid. But I think the vaccine was a case of 'damned if they do, damned if they don't'. The arguments for and against were way too complex for me, but the majority view was that a vaccine was needed and I don't think that was down to money.

I had 3 doses, and if I could turn the clock back I'd do exactly the same.

Ditto

[i961pie]

Any reason why youve not had the other doses they are giving out .?

Don't you have to be 75 or over?

[maddogslater]

I still wear a mask, when I go shopping etc. I'm regularly wash my hands and even use wipes in between the times I'm able to do that. I've had Covid twice in the last 9 months.

I'd have to say though that I've had Common Colds that had much worse symptoms. All I experienced was a bit of a scratchy throat, bit of coughing, bit of achiness, symptoms gone after a few days though.

Don't forget to sing happy birthday while washing your hands 😃

[Magpies1959]

EP once and for all I give zero f*cks about Boris Johnson, along with any other politician.

[Jampie]

I am one of those considered extremely vulnerable, and had the first three vaccine shots, before reading more about it and decided to take my chances. I have never had covid as far as I am aware (7 negative hospital tests), could have had it asymptomatically I guess. I was also very blase about masks and the two metre rule.
It was interesting to note that absolutely nothing was mentioned on the msm about T cells, leaving joe public to believe everyone was at danger of catching the deadly virus. Maybe they could have tested everyone to see who had T cells, thus allowing them to go about their daily business.

Everyone has T cells. Anyone without T cells would have died of some random disease a long time ago.

[Jampie]

You've reframed the argument.
You were making out vaccines prevented hospitalisation and death, now you're saying they were "far lower". The ICU stats were showing percentage of vaccinated were increasing and unvaccinated going down, then they stopped publishing as people began pointing that out.
Why would they push boosters if this were not the case?

Well, three things were happening there.

Firstly, the proportion of the population in England who have neither been vaccinated nor had the virus and acquired natural immunity, is now nearly zero.

That proportion was dropping throughout the pandemic from 100% to near 0% as it is now.

The overwhelming majority of the population is now vaccinated (whether they've had the virus or not), and as such vaccinated people were naturally representing a larger and larger proportion of those being hospitalised.

It's important to note that all of the stats always indicated that vaccinated people were still hospitalised at a lower rate per population than unvaccinated. For e.g. if 95% of your population is vaccinated, and 80% of hospitalised are vaccinated, it's important to realise that 5% of the population (unvaccinated) are 4x more likely per person to be hospitalised.

UK's stats continually showed this, but anti vaxxers continually glossed over it, increasingly pouncing on the first number only and dishonestly presenting this as evidence that the vaccines didn't work.

The second thing going on is that due to our singularly brilliant plan of allowing the virus to propagate out of control throughout the western world until it reached the third world, thereby having billions of bodies in which to mutate freely for months and now years on end, the virus has mutated. Massively.

The first vaccines, and indeed all vaccines available for the first several years, were _solely_ based on the original Wuhan strain of the virus.

The newer strains, Delta through Omicron and its descendants (today's unwanted guests) evolved quite directly and literally to evade the immune systems of people who were immune to the Wuhan strain, regardless of how that immunity was acquired (vaccine or getting the virus early).

By now, though, vaccines against the Wuhan strain are of very limited use, as is natural immunity aquired from the earlier strains. As such, updated vaccines are needed (in short) and a lot of us will want years updated boosters just like Influenza.

Thirdly, immune responses wane over time, and we're seeing that happen too.

As I said, unvaxxed were disproportionately from poor backgrounds and poor health. Average age maybe suggests they'd avoided care homes and being put on the ventilators in the first wave, then eventually caught it as it spread through communities.
No argument vax stimulated an immune response but it waned after three weeks and then you had no protection within around 3 months. Hence vaxxed then getting ill and need for boosters with talk of giving them indefinitely. 3 or 4 every year, which caused a lot more people to become suspicious and ask questions.

An experiment is trial and error. You wait to see what happens before declaring it safe, not before. This vax was given the green light on the basis there was a global emergency and that there was no other treatment whatsoever available. On one side you've got a diversity of ideas as to what can be done to treat people, the other insisting there can only be one single solution with anybody who suggests otherwise censored and smeared.

As I said, I don't think there is any plan to give updated vaccines more than once or twice per year. As the virus continues to mutate, I suspect we'll settle into one shot every year like Influenza.

But, I should stress I think people should get vaccine advice from their doctor, not the internet, as there is a vast array of dangerous complete nonsense being spread about vaccines on the internet.

[magpie_mania]

You're having a laugh, it reached the point where the stats (You could download straightforward Unvaxxed v vaxxed numbers of patients on ICU per month for individual hospitals) became inconvenient after they had promised the vax prevented hospitalisation and death. It didn't. They lied every step of the way (prevents infection, prevents spread, prevents severe illness, long term protection) and then hid the evidence.

Let's be clear about this, the average age of Covid death (with or of) was higher than life expectancy or thereabouts. The largest numbers of unvaxxed were in the deprived areas with the poorest health/diets and it was always the case from day 1 that the vast vast majority showed little or even no symptoms.

The jab didn't grant anybody eternal life or magically give them an extra 10 years as a bonus prize for being a compliant citizen, people who were jabbed still die. All cause mortality numbers - including excess - include vaccinated people.

Unvaxxed were not testing regularly, signing up for the NHS apps, NHS Covid surveys (I got one and binned it), track and trace or going to the doctor and presenting their symptoms for advice, there was no way of knowing how often or how ill unjabbed were apart the tiny fraction who became ill enough to require hospital treatment. Yet it reached the point of farce where young fit and healthy jabbed were wiped out with Covid telling the world "Thank goodness I got vaccinated or it would have been so much worse." when typically the fit and well pre-vax had been breezing through it. So if it were the case that the increase in heart issues is purely as a result of having Covid, the vaxxed won't be able to avoid it. Excess deaths in young and working age people as a result of heart conditions implies far greater numbers will have been damaged with the long term issues still to reveal themselves.

Simple maths shows that as more are vaccinated, it is quite possible that there are more in ITU who are vaccinated than not.

Take 1000 people.

95% are vaccinated = 950
5% aren't = 50

Of the vaccinated, 5% go into ICU = 48
Of the unvaccinated, 50% go into ICU = 25

You would say that there are more in ICU who are vaccinated which shows it doesn't work
I would say that you are 10 times more likely to go into ICU when unvaccinated than vaccinated.

Obviously not actual figures but you get the gist of it.

I've had 3 and quite happy. I will have the booster in the autumn.