O/T:- Trump Presidency 2.0 [hic sunt dracones]

[Old_pie]

I think hopes that Trump has a different agenda to Putin are admirable but naive. I've never seen any evidence of this.

The evidence seems to be that Trump is carrying out Putin's bidding.

[forwardmagpie]

Well, in trade negotiations, EU + UK is almost the same GDP as the US. That's a lot of bargaining power.

The UK on its own is about 12% the US's size as a market. That's little to no bargaining power.

Good luck with that plan Jampie the EU is a disorganised rabble that cannot and will not take on the USA

[jackal2]

The evidence seems to be that Trump is carrying out Putin's bidding.

Well if that's true, or even if it's just a meeting of similar mindsets between Trump and Putin, then we could be heading towards a world where USA/Russia (and possibly China) are broadly on one "side" and Europe is pretty much isolated on the other, in which case in 'realpolitik' terms, the UK may not want to be seen as being too close to Europe, or it might want to unfreeze UK/China relations.

[Jampie]

Good luck with that plan Jampie the EU is a disorganised rabble that cannot and will not take on the USA

It's not a plan and it won't happen now. Brexit means EU still has bargaining power and the UK has next to none.

[Elite_Pie]

But you haven?t answered why the EU will be a solution against Trump?

I haven't answered because I never said the EU will be a solution against Trump.

[forwardmagpie]

I haven't answered because I never said the EU will be a solution against Trump.

Very sorry if I misunderstood what you meant, would you please explain what you were saying - thanks

[BigFatPie]

Saw this take of the meeting on twitter and I agree with most of it:

I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was possible that Trump and Vance ambushed Zelensky or were even trying to humiliate him. That's not what happened.

You had 40 minutes of calm conversation. Vance made a point that didn't attack Zelensky and wasn't even addressed to him, and Zelensky clearly started the argument.

In the first 40 minutes, Zelensky kept trying to go beyond what was negotiated in the deal. When Trump was asked a question, it was always "we'll see." Zelensky made blanket assertions that there would be no negotiating with Putin, and that Russia would pay for the war. When Trump said that it was a tragedy that people on both sides were dying, Zelensky interjected that the Russians were the invaders.

For his part, Trump made clear that the US would continue delivering military aid. All Zelensky had to do was remain calm for a few more minutes and they would've signed a deal.

The argument started when Trump pointed out that it would be hard to make a deal if you talk about Putin the way Zelensky does. Vance interjects to make the reasonable point that Biden called Putin names and that didn't get us anywhere.

The Zelensky/Trump dynamic was calm and stable. It was when Vance spoke that Zelensky started to interrogate him. Throughout the press conference to that point, everyone was making their arguments directly to the audience. Zelensky decided to challenge Vance and ask him hostile questions. He went back to his point that Putin never sticks to ceasefires, once again implying that negotiations are pointless. Why on earth would you do this? Then came the fight we all saw.

Zelensky was minutes away from being home free, and he would have had the deal and new commitments from the Trump administration. The point Vance made was directed against Biden and the media, taking them to task for speaking in moralistic terms. This offended Zelensky, and that began the argument.

I've been a fan of Zelensky up to this point, but this showed so much incompetence, if not emotional instability, that I don't see how he recovers from this. The relationship with the administration is broken. Ukraine should probably go with new leadership at this point.

The worlds most predictable post, Andy blames Zelenskyy for that shambles. Pathetic.

[BigFatPie]

I was congratulating BFP - genuinely - on doing his research and spelling the name the Ukrainian way with the extra 'y', and I then adopted the spelling he was using. In previous posts I'd been using the other spelling.

Id love to take the credit for that, but my phones autocorrect has to take it instead.

[Mapperleypie]

Well if that's true, or even if it's just a meeting of similar mindsets between Trump and Putin, then we could be heading towards a world where USA/Russia (and possibly China) are broadly on one "side" and Europe is pretty much isolated on the other, in which case in 'realpolitik' terms, the UK may not want to be seen as being too close to Europe, or it might want to unfreeze UK/China relations.

Is this what 'taking back control' looks like?

[Bohinen]

The worlds most predictable post, Andy blames Zelenskyy for that shambles. Pathetic.

What is it about Zelensky/Zelenskyy/Zelenskyyyy that you find impressive? He's a warmonger and also a bit of a grifter, in truth. On a personal level, he's also the spitting image of my bestie when I was 10/11, who was Ukrainian. Objectively, he was also pretty horrible, right-wing, and stole sweets from the off-licence in Lady Bay.

[queenslandpie]

FWIW the only fact I can see is that love him or loathe him the Trump camp is making more progress than anyone else has, and the old adage that if you repeat the same thing time and time again you get the same result rings true. If the Trump camp stops the war and manages to change the course of history, even for a period of time it will most probably be a good thing for all. Zelensky definitely isn't going to and Putin isn't going to give up. Europe is too weak to do much of consequence other than not buying Russian gas and feeding the Ukranians with arms to prop up a WW1 style stalemate. Regardless of whether or not you like Trump he is trying something different and I hope it works if a few people can put pride to one side.

[Elite_Pie]

Regardless of whether or not you like Trump he is trying something different and I hope it works if a few people can put pride to one side.

The only way it can work is if Zelenskyy puts "pride" to one side and allows Trump and Putin to walk all over him. Incredibly, Trump seems to be persuading some (maybe you?) that this conflict is six of one and half a dozen of the other, rather than an illegal invasion.

[BigFatPie]

What is it about Zelensky/Zelenskyy/Zelenskyyyy that you find impressive? He's a warmonger and also a bit of a grifter, in truth. On a personal level, he's also the spitting image of my bestie when I was 10/11, who was Ukrainian. Objectively, he was also pretty horrible, right-wing, and stole sweets from the off-licence in Lady Bay.

Youll have to elaborate on why you think hes a warmonger.

[queenslandpie]

The only way it can work is if Zelenskyy puts "pride" to one side and allows Trump and Putin to walk all over him. Incredibly, Trump seems to be persuading some (maybe you?) that this conflict is six of one and half a dozen of the other, rather than an illegal invasion.

And there you go with the pride thing Elite. Is it an illegal invasion? Probably. Is it going to be resolve with the current status quo? Almost certainly not. It's not a question of persuasion for me it's a question of resolution. Arguing about whether or not it is an illegal invasion which it probably is isn't going to resolve it. The Trump camp has a better chance of resolution than anyone else. Of course you can argue separately about the cost of that, or we can all butt out leave them to it and see what the outcome of that is ( 100's of thousands of deaths and probably a Russian walkover and complete territorial grab). Or we can negotiate maybe Ukraine has to concede land and Russia has to concede that it won't get what it entirely wants being the much bigger player in the war on a 1:1 basis and therefore being able to dictate terms somewhat.

[Elite_Pie]

And there you go with the pride thing Elite. Is it an illegal invasion? Probably. Is it going to be resolve with the current status quo? Almost certainly not. It's not a question of persuasion for me it's a question of resolution. Arguing about whether or not it is an illegal invasion which it probably is isn't going to resolve it. The Trump camp has a better chance of resolution than anyone else. Of course you can argue separately about the cost of that, or we can all butt out leave them to it and see what the outcome of that is ( 100's of thousands of deaths and probably a Russian walkover and complete territorial grab). Or we can negotiate maybe Ukraine has to concede land and Russia has to concede that it won't get what it entirely wants being the much bigger player in the war on a 1:1 basis and therefore being able to dictate terms somewhat.

Look at it this way - if I steal 100 Aussie dollars from you and refuse to give it back, you would quite rightly fight to get it. Even though I'm 100% in the wrong, someone puts themselves in control and decides we get 50 Aussie dollars each, problem solved. I'd be happy, but would you?