OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

The question is, would he have got one?

Not a chance in hell. Cameron thought he was on a dead cert. He only allowed this one, because he was scared he was losing voters to UKIP.
That's the problem to me. As this vote has shown, there has been more than enough discontent among the masses, to have had this issue raised a long time ago.
We haven't had a vote since 1974 when we were lied to then. Economic collaboration my arse.

But the "masses" were supposed to behave like "sheep" (no pun intended) and accept what they was told.
We've tried it your way Ramanag. Over half of the electorate have said change it. So lets have a go without the EUSSR. I am not threatened at all. But I am pissed off, with your lots behaviour, as it is right out of the EU tactics book.
Ireland/Holland/denmark= keep voting until you vote the way we want you to.

Yet you support that analogy.

Just factually inaccurate Tricky.
1) It isn’t a question of trying it ‘my way’. I accept that things need to change but we have been doing quite well within the EU.
2) Over half the electorate have not said ‘change it’...37% did - some way off half - and that’s kind of crucial to the argument.
3) You haven’t created an analogy.

[macstheman]

Ooi chaps, can we concentrate on something important for a few hours! **** in or out of Europe, more ***** to that crap is in or out of the play-offs? Is it make or break tonight or will it go to the wire?? Concentrate on a positive result instead of wasting your brains on Cameron, Farage and co!!

Please......

[Trickytreesreds]

Ooi chaps, can we concentrate on something important for a few hours! **** in or out of Europe, more ***** to that crap is in or out of the play-offs? Is it make or break tonight or will it go to the wire?? Concentrate on a positive result instead of wasting your brains on Cameron, Farage and co!!

Please......

Can I talk about this again now?

[ramAnag]

Can I talk about this again now?

Not if you’re still trying to make out that ‘over half the electorate’ voted for it...no!

[Trickytreesreds]

Not if you’re still trying to make out that ‘over half the electorate’ voted for it...no!

Show of hands?

[ramAnag]

Show of hands?

Tricky...one more time...really slowly...
The electorate is made up of a minimum of forty six and a half million people. I say ‘a minimum’ because that doesn’t include those who for whatever reason - students, homeless, recently moved etc - were not registered.

Of those forty six and a half million only 17,410,742 voted for Brexit. Even in your wildest dreams you cannot possibly equate that to ‘half the electorate’.

At least (see above) 12,948,018 did not or could not vote and 16,141,241 voted for Remain. That means that of the 46,500,000 who make up the electorate 29,089,259 did NOT vote for Brexit.

All for reasoned argument about Brexit and the EU but if you still think ‘half the electorate’ (post #3376) voted for Brexit then you have no grasp at all of the basic facts which also explains why I am sick and tired of hearing leading Brexiteers repeatedly claiming that 17,410,742 out of 46,500,001 equals the ‘Will of the People’. It simply doesn’t and that is fundamental to any debate.

[Andy_Faber]

Tricky...one more time...really slowly...
The electorate is made up of a minimum of forty six and a half million people. I say ‘a minimum’ because that doesn’t include those who for whatever reason - students, homeless, recently moved etc - were not registered.

Of those forty six and a half million only 17,410,742 voted for Brexit. Even in your wildest dreams you cannot possibly equate that to ‘half the electorate’.

At least (see above) 12,948,018 did not or could not vote and 16,141,241 voted for Remain. That means that of the 46,500,000 who make up the electorate 29,089,259 did NOT vote for Brexit.

All for reasoned argument about Brexit and the EU but if you still think ‘half the electorate’ (post #3376) voted for Brexit then you have no grasp at all of the basic facts which also explains why I am sick and tired of hearing leading Brexiteers repeatedly claiming that 17,410,742 out of 46,500,001 equals the ‘Will of the People’. It simply doesn’t and that is fundamental to any debate.

To which the only response, which I may have posted before, is from that great philosopher, economist and tub-thumper Neil Peart 'If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice', and in this case, IMO (and remember the vote went AGAINST how I voted), those who chose not to decide passed the burden of decision to those who did. The argument will run and run, but you stand no chance of winning it, and neither of course does Tricky.

[ramAnag]

To which the only response, which I may have posted before, is from that great philosopher, economist and tub-thumper Neil Peart 'If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice', and in this case, IMO (and remember the vote went AGAINST how I voted), those who chose not to decide passed the burden of decision to those who did. The argument will run and run, but you stand no chance of winning it, and neither of course does Tricky.

It’s not over till...trying to think of a relevant fat lady...anyway...I suspect it’s not all over yet Andy.
That’s not the point though...the only reason for trotting out those figures (again) is that Brexiteers like Tricky keep claiming that the majority or, in his exact words, ‘half the electorate’ voted their way...that his view represents the ‘Will of the people’ and that is simply untrue and not even close to being factually correct.

[macstheman]

Sorry rA but the will of the people was cast!! IE: Majority vote for could'nt care a toss so we will leave it up to the 'rest of you', 'rest of you' voted out. Quite simple really (and I voted In!! but was outvoted!!)
The bottom line is rA in this country (for better or worse) the majority could'nt care a brass monkey's ******* about owt political or government related. That is what makes us the perfect democracy and why the majority (the could'nt give a flying duck's) won the day as they always do every time we cast (or don't) our vote! !

[ramAnag]

Sorry rA but the will of the people was cast!! IE: Majority vote for could'nt care a toss so we will leave it up to the 'rest of you', 'rest of you' voted out. Quite simple really (and I voted In!! but was outvoted!!)
The bottom line is rA in this country (for better or worse) the majority could'nt care a brass monkey's ******* about owt political or government related. That is what makes us the perfect democracy and why the majority (the could'nt give a flying duck's) won the day as they always do every time we cast (or don't) our vote! !

Seldom disagree and always respect your views mac...but I don’t think saying most people aren’t interested is good enough in this instance.
This isn’t like an election, the outcome of which can be challenged/overthrown in a little under five years. This is a decision that is going to have an impact for decades to come. I always thought having a referendum on such an issue was stupid...to stand by a decision reached by a minority as a result of complacency and disinterest on the part of the majority simply compounds that stupidity.

[macstheman]

That is the whole point rA, it is'nt good enough that people don't care but the bottom line is they don't. You care, many people do but in a democracy we allow the don't cares a vote and they invariably are the greatest number. When we joined the majority were also don't cares but we went in anyway. It was wrong then and it is wrong now and will be wrong many times again but I prefer it to most other systems.
Perhaps I have greater belief in my fellow citizens in that I voted in, others voted out but in OR out I know we will make a success of it, that is my belief in my country and it's citizens!! By making it a resounding success we will prove that letting the don't cares decide every decision this great country makes is not necessarily a bad thing!! Perhaps they know more than us!!

[Andy_Faber]

That is the whole point rA, it is'nt good enough that people don't care but the bottom line is they don't. You care, many people do but in a democracy we allow the don't cares a vote and they invariably are the greatest number. When we joined the majority were also don't cares but we went in anyway. It was wrong then and it is wrong now and will be wrong many times again but I prefer it to most other systems.
Perhaps I have greater belief in my fellow citizens in that I voted in, others voted out but in OR out I know we will make a success of it, that is my belief in my country and it's citizens!! By making it a resounding success we will prove that letting the don't cares decide every decision this great country makes is not necessarily a bad thing!! Perhaps they know more than us!!

Mac, I'll add to that that the success will be business driven not politics driven, just IMO of course

[Ram59]

It's by no means a perfect way of deciding things, but it's the the best way and is currently used in all sorts of situations.

For example; I and many thousands, if hundreds of thousands of people who have building society accounts with a certain building society, get a voting form every year for the Agm. Like myself, huge majority just bin these forms and a relatively few people actually vote on matters. I wonder if those who lost the vote constantly moan that a majority didn't vote for the other way? Those who don't cast their vote are considered to be abstaining and the result is considered to represent the will of the meeting /company.

[macstheman]

The point is, Andy, despite the best efforts of politicians to balls the job up and the results of every election and referendum we have ever had we, the people, carry on regardless. That's why I will do my bit (not much these days) to make it a success and it will be a success of that I have not the slightest doubt.

[Ram59]

At our neighbouring council election this month, the Liberal decorates won the seat with 13% of the electorate voting for her. How on earth should she be able to decide important local issues when 87% didn't want her in?