OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Manofpride;39067135]There are snakes and weasels in every party on both sides, it's the way of life. Everyone wants to feather their own nest and it'll never change! It's all about what's in it for me.
Are we any different?

Who are ‘we’ MoP? Of course there are ‘snakes and weasels’ throughout the Houses of Parliament, they’re politicians after all, but even you surely have to admit that that the current lot of extreme Brexiteers...Rees Mogg, Johnson, Fox, McVey etc...are proving to be not only utterly bonkers but similarly disloyal.

Regardless of one’s party politics it is now obvious that this country has been well and truly screwed by Tories from Cameron to Johnson and Gove to Rees Mogg putting Party and ego before the well being of the nation.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Take your left hand off your left eye too rA and look at how the other side are now seeking to create a bigger mess out of it, as per my post earlier. just a bunch of self-centred *******s the whole lot of them, both sides playing God with the country's fortunes in the interests of their own political careers. Not a single person that I can see in parliament that is trying to resolve the mess we are in, but all of them trying to wreck any chance of agreement for their own ends - be it Corbyn trying to snatch an opportunity to grab power, or the Tory right trying to wrest control of their own party. Both intent on rejecting the Brexit deal for their own personal ends, and between them they will.

Collaborate to reject the Brexit deal on the table (which for all its faults is at least a start), throw the country into even more political turmoil, the chaos of another general election which will simply result in a different group of people failing to achieve a consensus exit .and waste what little time is left to get a proper deal renegotiated. The EU and indeed the whole world must be laughing at us. What chance is there to improve the deal when we sit squabbling like spoiled children. The EU negotiators know full well they have no need to concede anything, because that will simply result in a different element within our parliament whinging.

Who would have thunk a die hard remainer such as May was batting for Brexit, and a long time leaver such as Corbyn wanting to reject the plan to leave. All for their own self aggrandissement. If it wasnt so pathetically sad, it would be funny. But its the future of this country they are squabbling about amongst their grasping for power. power for what - to govern a country that is slowly crashing and burning into a no deal brexit?

I never thought I would feel sorry for May, but she simply cannot win. She compromised her own beliefs in pursuit of power, now its all falling down and the only certainty is that she will not be in power this time next year

[ramAnag]

Take your left hand off your left eye too rA and look at how the other side are now seeking to create a bigger mess out of it, as per my post earlier. just a bunch of self-centred *******s the whole lot of them, both sides playing God with the country's fortunes in the interests of their own political careers. Not a single person that I can see in parliament that is trying to resolve the mess we are in, but all of them trying to wreck any chance of agreement for their own ends - be it Corbyn trying to snatch an opportunity to grab power, or the Tory right trying to wrest control of their own party. Both intent on rejecting the Brexit deal for their own personal ends, and between them they will.

Collaborate to reject the Brexit deal on the table (which for all its faults is at least a start), throw the country into even more political turmoil, the chaos of another general election which will simply result in a different group of people failing to achieve a consensus exit .and waste what little time is left to get a proper deal renegotiated. The EU and indeed the whole world must be laughing at us. What chance is there to improve the deal when we sit squabbling like spoiled children. The EU negotiators know full well they have no need to concede anything, because that will simply result in a different element within our parliament whinging.

Who would have thunk a die hard remainer such as May was batting for Brexit, and a long time leaver such as Corbyn wanting to reject the plan to leave. All for their own self aggrandissement. If it wasnt so pathetically sad, it would be funny. But its the future of this country they are squabbling about amongst their grasping for power. power for what - to govern a country that is slowly crashing and burning into a no deal brexit?

I never thought I would feel sorry for May, but she simply cannot win. She compromised her own beliefs in pursuit of power, now its all falling down and the only certainty is that she will not be in power this time next year

Oh come on Parky...I’m not defending Corbyn, the man’s been less than useless throughout, but your argument is flawed.
You accuse May of ‘self aggrandisement’ and a couple of sentences later tell us you ‘feel sorry’ for her and that she ‘simply cannot win’.
Tbh May’s greatest achievement might have been to have people like me seeing her as acting relatively responsibly and reasonably.
I still wish we could just get out of this ridiculous situation where I believe Brexit is going to make us all worse off, but in reality there can be nothing worse than the ‘no deal’ scenario which the most ardent Brexiteers are still advocating.

Even I didn’t realise quite how desperate things might become until a conversation yesterday with someone I know very well. They work for a major drugs company and his job at the moment is to endeavour to locate a huge amount of secure storage for the stockpiling of essential pharmaceuticals in the event of a ‘no deal’. I’m talking about millions of pounds here which is to be spent just on storage. He represents just one company...God knows how many more people will be looking for similar facilities, some of it temperature controlled and the money won’t be recoverable as contracts are likely to have to be exchanged before we know the eventual Brexit outcome.

You can moan about Corbyn as much as you like, I’m no fan either, but this is a crisis born and bred within the extremes of the Tory Party. It seriously needs resolving unless we are all just to become play things to fuel the egos of the likes of Johnson, Gove and Rees Mogg.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I dont deny that is where its born and bred (starting with Cameron arrogance), but the other side are simply standing there heaving fuel onto the fire, and that is equally damaging and distracting to the country.

Incidentally I see no conflict in feeling sorry for someone who took on a role to big herself up. The least she could have hoped for would be support from the party, but no: they seem hell bent on self destruction. She took on a poisoned chalice that she did not believe in and which was inevitably going to bring her down, but at least she has had her Andy Warhol 15 minutes I suppose.

The only solution that I can see would be a government of national unity in time of crisis, taking the moderates from both sides of the house trying to put together a soft brexit that would leave a middle ground majority happy - but it this pie in the sky to expect politicians to act in the interest of the country. Let the two extremes unite to reject her deal, but why cannot the centre right and centre left agree to work together for a solution and then, once achieved, they can resume their fighting against one another in the traditional way in parliament if they want. Or maybe,just maybe, a new centrist party might evolve what isnt called the Lib Demsand so could be electable!!!.

[ramAnag]

I dont deny that is where its born and bred (starting with Cameron arrogance), but the other side are simply standing there heaving fuel onto the fire, and that is equally damaging and distracting to the country.

Incidentally I see no conflict in feeling sorry for someone who took on a role to big herself up. The least she could have hoped for would be support from the party, but no: they seem hell bent on self destruction. She took on a poisoned chalice that she did not believe in and which was inevitably going to bring her down, but at least she has had her Andy Warhol 15 minutes I suppose.

The only solution that I can see would be a government of national unity in time of crisis, taking the moderates from both sides of the house trying to put together a soft brexit that would leave a middle ground majority happy - but it this pie in the sky to expect politicians to act in the interest of the country. Let the two extremes unite to reject her deal, but why cannot the centre right and centre left agree to work together for a solution and then, once achieved, they can resume their fighting against one another in the traditional way in parliament if they want. Or maybe,just maybe, a new centrist party might evolve what isnt called the Lib Demsand so could be electable!!!.

Well there we have it. I entirely agree with your final paragraph. Sense and agreement at last. Every cloud....

[Geoff Parkstone]

Its only taken 3756 posts to reach this level of agreement!

[i961pie]

Corbyn has always tended towards the ‘Leave’ cause imo, Geoff.
Can’t fault your thoughts about Parliament though. God save us from thinly disguised Nationalists and let’s hope for some common sense.

Tended towards leave???? He has been anti EU all of his political life and as said so on many occasions.

[i961pie]

Lol...I couldn’t care less really. The Royals are largely irrelevant to me. Sad thing is...even I have to admit they set a better example than most politicians...especially the collection of snakes and weasels on the Tory right.

Unlike Messrs Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott on the Marxist left.

[ramAnag]

Unlike Messrs Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott on the Marxist left.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with their politics, pie...I don’t think you can describe them as badly behaved or setting a bad example. Naivety is probably their biggest ‘sin’. So yes, Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell are, I agree, quite unlike the vipers on the Tory right.

[Andy_Faber]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39067222]

There are snakes and weasels in every party on both sides, it's the way of life. Everyone wants to feather their own nest and it'll never change! It's all about what's in it for me.
Are we any different?

Who are ‘we’ MoP? Of course there are ‘snakes and weasels’ throughout the Houses of Parliament, they’re politicians after all, but even you surely have to admit that that the current lot of extreme Brexiteers...Rees Mogg, Johnson, Fox, McVey etc...are proving to be not only utterly bonkers but similarly disloyal.

Regardless of one’s party politics it is now obvious that this country has been well and truly screwed by Tories from Cameron to Johnson and Gove to Rees Mogg putting Party and ego before the well being of the nation.

As I've said before, there are no clean hands

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/13/labour-mp-deliberately-misled-police-over-speeding-court-told

I think your party allegiance is colouring your view

[Andy_Faber]

this is a crisis born and bred within the extremes of the Tory Party.

I beg to differ. The root cause of the crisis is the decision the 90s labour administration made to decline the then-available opportunity to put a brake on immigration from the newly signed up EU countries. Without the impact of that on voter sentiment I strongly believe Remain would have won and this thread would be 4250 comments shorter. I'm saying this as an observer, not someone with an agenda on this subject

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Andy_Faber;39067532]

As I've said before, there are no clean hands

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/13/labour-mp-deliberately-misled-police-over-speeding-court-told

I think your party allegiance is colouring your view

Except that a) I don’t have a Party allegiance. b) the article has nothing at all to do with Brexit or the behaviour of MP’s in relation to the current crisis. c) I have never suggested that Labour politicians are all paragons of virtue.

[swaledale]

I beg to differ. The root cause of the crisis is the decision the 90s labour administration made to decline the then-available opportunity to put a brake on immigration from the newly signed up EU countries. Without the impact of that on voter sentiment I strongly believe Remain would have won and this thread would be 4250 comments shorter. I'm saying this as an observer, not someone with an agenda on this subject

Thats far too simple a theory, and werent you arguing a while back that immigration wasn't the sole reason?

Sure there are those inwardly looking, narrow minded individuals who view immigration as negative thing, there are those who thought it would stop non eu migrants - Trickys rants incherent though they were focussed on that when he wasn't trying to prove conspiracy theories - there are many who want to turn the clock back to the 1950's when Brotain had the last vestigaes of an empire and thought of itself (foolishly) as a world power and many apparently sentient people who thought that £350 million to the NHS sounded like a good idea, and then there were those ****ed off by being treated shabbily by successive governments - ironically often in areas where eu migration was not significant - north east, humberside, the forgotten tons of East Anglia like Yarmouth, Clacton etc.- who voted leave because to give what they saw as the establishment a kicking - ironic when Farage, Rees-Mogg and Johnson are the very embodiment of the establishment.

Despite all this a narrow majority of the 37% voted for leave hardly convincing.

I heard it summed up very succinctly the other day - Leavers voted Remain and Remainers voted Leave - i.e. those that were prepared to move in search of better job and life opportunities voted remain - those who haven't strayed more than a stones throw from where they were born voted Leave.

Yet this country is made up of immigrants, if you take one of those DNA ancestry tests you may find your not as "english" as you believe.

Anyway we will remain in the customs union and virtually in if not actually in the single market, anything else is economic suicide and simply wont happen.

[swaledale]

I decided to take no notice of any partisan outlets regarding the ‘deal’ (which meant no Laura kuenssberg tonight thank God) and it looks to me like the general feeling is that this is an OK deal.

It just goes to show people never appreciate what they have until they don't have it - most countries would love to have a broadcaster such as the BBC, indeed in many places across the world its viewed as the only reliable news service - given that it strives to offer a balanced view even when its patently ludicrous - viz. having climate change deniers on when discussing said subject.

The BBC is not perfect, what organisation run by human beings is, but to call it partisan smacks of a Daily Mail readers mentality - though I notice with a change of editor that has rather done a reverse ferret on Brexit lately!

Maybe its because it does

[ramAnag]

It just goes to show people never appreciate what they have until they don't have it - most countries would love to have a broadcaster such as the BBC, indeed in many places across the world its viewed as the only reliable news service - given that it strives to offer a balanced view even when its patently ludicrous - viz. having climate change deniers on when discussing said subject.

The BBC is not perfect, what organisation run by human beings is, but to call it partisan smacks of a Daily Mail readers mentality - though I notice with a change of editor that has rather done a reverse ferret on Brexit lately!

Maybe its because it does

Agree with virtually every word of those two posts Swale.

Interesting too Andy that yesterday the leader of the CBI went out of her way to query the wisdom of the immigration implications of May’s plans.
Unless I misunderstood she seemed to be expressing real concern about the damaging impact a shortage of labour might have on such areas as the building trade and the NHS.
Don’t really see how you can blame Labour’s policy of two decades ago. The root of the Brexit fiasco lies with the likes of Duncan Smith, Paterson, Johnson, Fox, Rees Mogg, UKIP and Gove....and just look at who’s still stirring up trouble! Sincerely hope there’ll be no Gove in long term future Gove-rnment.