OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I think that's a fair assessment MA. We and EU still seem so far apart that a 12 month extension isn't likely to do much other than delay the current problem by a further 12 months.

I suppose we could give Ulster to Ireland and make the backstop irrelevant, but that's not going to happen, is it.

Faced with remain or no deal, then I'd say "remain" but reflect upon the colossal waste of time and money. Other more committed brexiteers may not be so reflective. On the other hand there may be rejoicing in the extreme in parts of rural Derbyshire.

BUT if we do remain, the problem won't just go away, the schism between EU and UK created by the brexit project will ultimately lead to revolt here and maybe a future no deal exit as more of the United States of Europe plans come into play.

That said the shifting age demographic may ultimately reduce current negative opinion towards USE.

At last, an outbreak of common sense. The three comments above all, imo, have their finger on the pulse of what is currently happening.
The EU will, imo, look favourably on extending Article 50 - why wouldn’t they...they don’t want us to leave - and in the ensuing 9-12 month period we will eventually realise that a second referendum has become inevitable.
Should the unlikely happen and a vote for ‘Leave’ be repeated then even the most hard bitten ‘Remainers’ will have nowhere to go with any further argument, but what I think - and obviously hope - is much more likely is that...without all the orchestrated lies of the original Leave campaign and with a more politically aware electorate and the shifting age demographic then the country will see sense and vote ‘Remain’.

Then, hopefully, we’ll all be able to fully recognise what a complete waste of time, money and words the last (by then) four years will have been, get on with doing what we do best and banish Farage, Banks, Davies, Cameron and anyone connected with the ERG to some far flung soulless region of the planet (Es*** perhaps?) for them never to darken our door again.

[Geoff Parkstone]

So, today we vote to take no deal off the table. Assume that passes.

Tomorrow we vote to seek an extension. What if that vote fails?

Meaning no to the options of May deal, no deal or an extention to the deal time frame?

But remain is not a fallback position. So then revocation of Article 50 is all there is available but not yet an option to be considered??

[MadAmster]

So, today we vote to take no deal off the table. Assume that passes.

Tomorrow we vote to seek an extension. What if that vote fails?

Meaning no to the options of May deal, no deal or an extention to the deal time frame?

But remain is not a fallback position. So then revocation of Article 50 is all there is available but not yet an option to be considered??

I thought my "No Brexit" option covered that but if you hadn't read it as such then please do so.

Following a speech at the EU Parliament today (?) by the leader of UK MEP's, there is a 5th option. May et al vote to extend A50 tomorrow and go to "Brussels" explaining why they want to extend and what real proposals they have to justify an extension. From what EU officials are saying they won't renegotiate and can't see anyhtig May could offer that would cut it.

IMO they would be likely to refuse to extend and basically tell May to go forth and multiply. We would be out, with no deal. May could then put the blame on the EU................... not an outcome that had occurred to me but it is one that could easily happen. Had anybody else on here thought of it as a possibility?

[mistaram]

One would indeed Swale. The problem is that most of them don't, which is the point you make.

The big question now is, where to next?

As I see it, yesterday morning there were, IMO, 4 possibilities, namely, May's crappy deal, No deal, Extending Article 50 and No Brexit.

May's crappy deal was decimated for a 2nd time yesterday and the EU seems to have no appetite to tweak it further and absolutely no intention of major changes to it so I would surmise any deal is out of the question.

Most MPs seem to be against No Deal under WTO rules and I am convinced that will be voted down today.

Extending Article 50. MPs might vote to do that, however, if they do so, all May can do is ASK the EU for an extension. All 27 member countries would have to agree for a start and they are saying that there is no more ground to give. May would also have to go back with significant plans in order to get EU agreement on any extension. She doesn't have those plans and won't, IMO, be able to put such together in the next 16 days so I feel that an extension is not a credible option.

That leaves No Brexit. I have consistently said, ever since the referendum that I would believe Brexit when I saw it. Is No Brexit now the most likely option? I think it is, based purely on the fact that the other 3 options are already down and out or very close to the knockout punch which leaves #4.

I fully accept I may be wrong and there is a 5th or even more options. If anyone has more options, please feel free to add them in for discussion.

MA for what it's worth i think she will come back next week and have a third vote on her deal And dare I say it she will get it through only because Mps no that not to vote it through the consequences don't bear thinking about The DUP will change there stance lots more Tories and Labour already wavering Personally I think the whole thing has been orchestrated to take it to the wire once she had signed the Withdrawal Agreement Just my thoughts

[MadAmster]

MA for what it's worth i think she will come back next week and have a third vote on her deal And dare I say it she will get it through only because Mps no that not to vote it through the consequences don't bear thinking about The DUP will change there stance lots more Tories and Labour already wavering Personally I think the whole thing has been orchestrated to take it to the wire once she had signed the Withdrawal Agreement Just my thoughts

Aka "I will believe Brexit when it happens" as I have often posted on here........ the plan to either not leave or leave "while staying in to all intents and purposes" seems to be chugging along nicely.

[swaledale]

MA for what it's worth i think she will come back next week and have a third vote on her deal And dare I say it she will get it through only because Mps no that not to vote it through the consequences don't bear thinking about The DUP will change there stance lots more Tories and Labour already wavering Personally I think the whole thing has been orchestrated to take it to the wire once she had signed the Withdrawal Agreement Just my thoughts

Thats a very likely scenario, she clearly has no intention of looking at a softer Brexit, something I find astonishing - the vote was to leave the Eu, there were no specifics about what that would look like and given the very low majority in favour then a soft brexit would IMO have been a compromise, but no it seems there is a blind determination to push for as hard a Brexit as possible without damaging the Uk too much.

I doubt the DUP will soften their stand on the backstop, so that begs the question what game is Corbyn playing? He is in favour of Brexit, albeit a softer one, perchance if thats put forward then thats a more likely option.

All in all a stunning example of how humans tie themselves up in knots about something that in the grand scheme of things is unimportant,.

[mistaram]

[QUOTE=swaledale;39171580]Thats a very likely scenario, she clearly has no intention of looking at a softer Brexit, something I find astonishing - the vote was to leave the Eu, there were no specifics about what that would look like and given the very low majority in favour then a soft brexit would IMO have been a compromise, but no it seems there is a blind determination to push for as hard a Brexit as possible without damaging the Uk too much.

I doubt the DUP will soften their stand on the backstop, so that begs the question what game is Corbyn playing? He is in favour of Brexit, albeit a softer one, perchance if thats put forward then thats a more likely option.

All in all a stunning example of how humans tie themselves up in knots about something that in the grand scheme of r.

Swales the reason I thought the DUP might change their mind I had just read this
DUP leader Arlene Foster and their party Westminster Party leader Nigel Dodds and their spouses dined with the PM and Philip May at her official country residence last Friday night Surprising what a free meal can do in politics lol

[AdiSalisbury]

I doubt the DUP will soften their stand on the backstop, so that begs the question what game is Corbyn playing?

Sabotaging any effort put forward by government in a vain attempt to get himself into power on the premise that his antics result in government **** ups. Self-serving and conniving. If another election is called, I think a hung parliament is closer than it's ever been in recent memory:

Labour winning the brainwashed social media demographic.
Tories winning the traditional comfort seats in the affluent south.
LibDems winning the votes of people wanting to remain / revote.
UKIP winning the disillusioned brexit voters from the other main 2 parties.

[Manofpride]

Democracy in the UK is over!!!

[ramAnag]

Democracy in the UK is over!!!

Sorry MoP but I do get tired of Brexiteers moaning about how all this is a threat to our democracy.
Democracy is defined as being a state or organisation which is governed by the wishes of the majority of its members.
Brexit has never had the support of a majority of the electorate...that is a straightforward fact.
Is Democracy worth preserving if the electorate is voting on evidence provided by liars and electoral rule breakers who abuse democracy?
If Democracy is so central to the Brexiteer cause...why do they object so strongly to a second and infinitely better informed referendum? Surely that would be a greater exercise in democracy and in any case, we live in a Parliamentary Democracy so why not just let Parliament decide?

[Andy_Faber]

Sorry MoP but I do get tired of Brexiteers moaning about how all this is a threat to our democracy.
Democracy is defined as being a state or organisation which is governed by the wishes of the majority of its members.
Brexit has never had the support of a majority of the electorate...that is a straightforward fact.
Is Democracy worth preserving if the electorate is voting on evidence provided by liars and electoral rule breakers who abuse democracy?
If Democracy is so central to the Brexiteer cause...why do they object so strongly to a second and infinitely better informed referendum? Surely that would be a greater exercise in democracy and in any case, we live in a Parliamentary Democracy so why not just let Parliament decide?

Not this again!

No greater liar than George Osbourne and his 'Emergency Budget', the word on the wireless today from across the political spectrum appears to be that the whole political class needs overhauling, its just one big plague pit.

I will give a nod however to Labour's Lisa Nandy who appears unlike the rest to be able to offer some kind of balance to the argument, not sure if you've seen her amongst all the self serving masses

[ramAnag]

Not this again!

No greater liar than George Osbourne and his 'Emergency Budget', the word on the wireless today from across the political spectrum appears to be that the whole political class needs overhauling, its just one big plague pit.

I will give a nod however to Labour's Lisa Nandy who appears unlike the rest to be able to offer some kind of balance to the argument, not sure if you've seen her amongst all the self serving masses

Well yes, ‘this again!’ I didn’t bring it up but until the questions are answered - they never are - it’ll continue to raise its tiresome head.
Do wholeheartedly agree about the need for complete political overhaul though.

[Andy_Faber]

Well yes, ‘this again!’ I didn’t bring it up but until the questions are answered - they never are - it’ll continue to raise its tiresome head.
Do wholeheartedly agree about the need for complete political overhaul though.

Our shower couldn't decide between a bap, a cob and a roll at the mo. Set against that I have a friend in Italy who is bemoaning the fact that for the first time in decades their parliament ARE making some decisions!

[AdiSalisbury]

This isn't an attack or aimed RA, but what I am bored of hearing from those who think they are better informed, take your pick as to your favourite.

Standard boring remoaner response toolkit...

You were lied to.
It was only advisory.
You didn't have a plan.
Someone who has no influence over your vote, broke some rule, making your vote invalid.
It wasn't really a majority.
Those who didn't vote, wanted to remain.
Blah blah blah, I know **** all and don't even have any idea what the EU is or anything about economics, but I'm going to belittle your intelligence, because I'm brainwashed by my own propaganda.

[Andy_Faber]

This isn't an attack or aimed RA, but what I am bored of hearing from those who think they are better informed, take your pick as to your favourite.

Standard boring remoaner response toolkit...

You were lied to.
It was only advisory.
You didn't have a plan.
Someone who has no influence over your vote, broke some rule, making your vote invalid.
It wasn't really a majority.
Those who didn't vote, wanted to remain.
Blah blah blah, I know **** all and don't even have any idea what the EU is or anything about economics, but I'm going to belittle your intelligence, because I'm brainwashed by my own propaganda.

I think in retrospect, Remainers should have been given two votes each in recognition of their greater insight, we wouldn't have this issue then