OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

Sadly you are beginning to sound like a broken record here, every mere suggestion that you disagree with is riddled with lies and falsehoods.

So one non elected voice in the Lords may have suggested changes in these areas. If they ever get adopted as official policy and any progress is made towards amending them to the detriment of the protection of consumer rights, then we can get concerned.

But fo now a lone voice spouting "extremist" changes post Brexit is just that - and as has already been pointed out, the legitimacy of your facts is already in question.

Just sounds like a bitter remoaner trying to find something new to moan about as a result of us leaving, now the primary battle has been lost. When and if any of this comes to pass, there may be a concern - but for now its just remoaner scaremongering in my view

I do like the way you dismiss this guy, who is widely acknowledged to be one of the people within the Tory eurosceptics who was behind the promotion of Brexit and the hard version of Brexit at that.

All I have done is reposted the actual piece written by him on conservativehome, I mean **** me, it isn't as if I were making this stuff up, its on the conservatives support group website. Thats obvious for anybody who actually read my post.

I even acknowledged that a number of the suggestions were false premises so contrary to your assertion, AF didn't point it out to me, funnily enough I didn't need to be told this.

But its a measure of your political naivety that you so easily dismiss them as the views of an unelected Tory -albeit one who behind the scenes has heavily influenced the position we are in today. You don't appear to know that this is where the policies adopted by the Tories emanate from, sure they get modified, made more palatable and more opaque so that people (generally the dumb electorate) don't actually understand whats going on.


Ah so if I or anyone else who points out where the promises made by the Brexit are broken or flag up areas where some of the thoughts of those in power are extreme, thats a so called remoaner being bitter?

WTF? I think I'd rather be aware of where the lying toe rags are breaking promises and be forewarned of some of the things that certain elements would like to implement going forward, than remain ignorant. But hey suit yourself.

Anyway I take particular pleasure in demonstrating just how many of the things I told the Brexit supporters were false have proven to be the case. Nothing more pleasurable than being proven right.

I love it when you say if and when it happens is the time to be concerned. I disagree, the time to be concerned is when these ideas are being circulated, after all people dismissed Trump's chances of being elected, look at the **** storm the US have now. perhaps if people had taken him seriously, then that may have been avoided.

Indeed the same applied to Brexit, many dismissed the concept as something that very few people would vote for, which of course was basically true, but unfortunately due to complacency even fewer people voted for Remain.

This is of course the way the far right works, say and propose things that seem unlikely or even preposterous, safe in the knowledge that the sheep like voters will be easily fooled into thinking "thinking that will never happen" only to fin that a version of it somehow has!

I kind of guessed what the response would be on here when I posted that, sadly I was not disappointed.

[swaledale]

apolitical - not interested or involved in politics.

Have never been involved in it, and my interest is only limited to a general sense of contempt towards most practitioners of it

perhaps I am apolitician ??!

So what would your apolitical self suggest as means of governing society then? I'm always interested in people who are scathing about politics and yet seem to offer no solution as to how human beings would govern themselves?

[ramAnag]

apolitical - not interested or involved in politics.

Have never been involved in it, and my interest is only limited to a general sense of contempt towards most practitioners of it

perhaps I am apolitician ??!

Apolitical...def, politically neutral, without political attitudes. Is that you...really?
You’ve certainly seemed pretty opinionated on any of the political threads to me.

[swaledale]

and its no coincidence that Cameron was a remainer!

I think I would describe myself as apolitical - I actually detest both main parties and regard neither of them as worthy of my support, I regard the libdems as a waste of space leaving just the greens (whose policies are probably to the left of Corbyn in many cases) to win my vote: which they do. You could characterise this as a safe protest vote, and in many ways it is, although I do agree with many of their environmental policies. Beyond that my choice is restricted to various lunatic fringe parties.

So no, I am not pro Tory, although I am pro some of their policies, which I might also be under a Starmer led Labour, asopposed to Corbyn who, like Swale, has alienated much of his own support and damaged "his party" intensely,

On the other hand I defend the government (and probably would do whoever was in power - except Corbyn) simply because they have had not one poisoned chalice to deal with (Brexit) but then an even more poisoned one in COVID. Brexit was an apolitical decision and it fell on a Tory government to put it into effect, often against the wishes of many of their MP's and indeed supporters. My assessment of the deals carved out are thus viewed in this context. Would have been interesting to see what sort of deal would have been drawn up if a different coloured parliament was negotiating it. Whoever is having to make decisions will get the criticism of the other side.

Re COVID the government make mistakes and change their minds as would anyone in the face of an unknown "enemy" where noone has a model to follow and policy is made on the hoof, but I see no point slavishy hammering them for their every move. Again COVID response should be apolitical, not a sniping opportunity.

I remember many moons ago I was advocating a government of national unity to deal with Brexit, and COVID response would have benefitted greatly from being cross party as it would eliminate the political swipes. Not sure the response would have been any different, but maybe better informed and communicated

If I were you I'd stop making comments on political subjects, because if you think that Brexit was an apolitical decision then clearly you really don't have a clue!

How did it fall to the Tory party to put it in to effect, the referendum was in the Tory party manifesto FFS! It was a purely political decision to go for a hard Brexit, it certainly did not effect the closeness of the referendum vote - which if reflected properly would ahve seen the UK leave the political aspects of the EU and just be connected on economic and trade grounds.

I mean who else but successive Tory politicians have used the immigration card to appeal to people's base fears and instincts, how often have Tory politicians blamed the EU for something that wasn't the EU's fault - gosh I wonder what they will blame now that scapegoat has gone?

[swaledale]

Some of what we all write is a mixture of well informed and rubbish, imo, Ram.
You and I probably differ over Swale because I tend to agree with him and you, politically speaking, invariably disagree with him.
His tragedy, again imo, is that he is well informed but alienates people so no one listens.

At some point people like you and I, from different sides of the political ‘fence’ but usually able to debate civilly, have to find more common ground. The alternative is the scenes we saw in Washington last night - instigated largely by the increasingly deranged outgoing President - being replicated across the UK.

rA you are fooling yourself if you think your calm reasoned tone has any greater effect than my more "muscular" approach. Sure you continue a conversation with these ****s, but they are not listening to you either.

A fact exemplified by the sad death of a 35 year old woman in the US, a veteran of numerous tours of Afghanistan and Iraq, shot storming the capital, her life wasted because she swallowed all the bull**** and lies fed to her by Trump. Reasoned argument would never have changed her mind.

[swaledale]

Yes he always seemed to be the best informed, how did we know that, because he told us of course. He spouts stuff far beyond our knowledge, knowing that none of us can argue against his 'knowledge', but over time his rants include some obvious falsehoods which he also claims to be gospel. So if some of what he claims is rubbish, then probably his 'expert knowledge' is also rubbish.

Is it my fault you don't have the required knowledge?

[ramAnag]

rA you are fooling yourself if you think your calm reasoned tone has any greater effect than my more "muscular" approach. Sure you continue a conversation with these ****s, but they are not listening to you either.

A fact exemplified by the sad death of a 35 year old woman in the US, a veteran of numerous tours of Afghanistan and Iraq, shot storming the capital, her life wasted because she swallowed all the bull**** and lies fed to her by Trump. Reasoned argument would never have changed her mind.

I may not change minds, Swale...I’m aware of that and sometimes people’s views are too entrenched.
You should be able to and don’t precisely because you call your ‘audience’ ‘****s’ and immediately alienate them.
‘Muscular’? I imagine that’s how Trump’s mob from last night view themselves too.

[Geoff Parkstone]

So what would your apolitical self suggest as means of governing society then? I'm always interested in people who are scathing about politics and yet seem to offer no solution as to how human beings would govern themselves?

Ah now there we have the 64 million dollar question. I have nothing to offer as regards an alternative other than perhaps to suggest removing all organised support for parties - or indeed abolish political parties entirely. That way the "business vs union" aspect would be eliminated and an HR type "best fit" solution could emerge where both sides of that fence work together for common good

Is something corrupt, driven by personal self aggrandisment, petty bickering and such better than nothing at all? I ask the student anarchist in myself and wonder?

[swaledale]

Ah now there we have the 64 million dollar question. I have nothing to offer as regards an alternative other than perhaps to suggest removing all organised support for parties - or indeed abolish political parties entirely. That way the "business vs union" aspect would be eliminated and an HR type "best fit" solution could emerge where both sides of that fence work together for common good

Is something corrupt, driven by personal self aggrandisment, petty bickering and such better than nothing at all? I ask the student anarchist in myself and wonder?

A couple of points, one the real work that many politicians of all persuasions do at a local level for people is often overlooked. They do make a real difference.

What you seem to be proposing, maybe thats too strong a word, putting out for discussion is perhaps better, is akin to communism or indeed socialism as its intended. But that doesn't seem to work on a practical basis.

Your comment on a business vs union aspect seems to reflect painful personal experience? I have to say that I have rarely had an issue with unions, yes negotiations can be painful and take time, but then I could say the same about numerous business to business transactions!

Human beings have to organise themselves somehow and there has to be a realisation that not everybody's wishes, demands, aspirations can be achieved. Whilst there is much to criticise with the current systems, in the main they do largely result in civilised society, imperfect definitely but I rather live in a flawed democracy than under a flawed dictatorship.

Humans are competitive, that leads to whatever organisation they from being corrupted by ambition and desire. Voters tend to want instant solutions to complex problems and are not generally very keen on making the effort to understand what is required to resolve issues.

Humans it seems would rather have that one in a million chance to become "super rich" rather than a dead certainty of having enough, even though all evidence suggests that more money doesn't equal more happiness.

[ramAnag]

Ah now there we have the 64 million dollar question. I have nothing to offer as regards an alternative other than perhaps to suggest removing all organised support for parties - or indeed abolish political parties entirely. That way the "business vs union" aspect would be eliminated and an HR type "best fit" solution could emerge where both sides of that fence work together for common good

Is something corrupt, driven by personal self aggrandisment, petty bickering and such better than nothing at all? I ask the student anarchist in myself and wonder?

Hmmm, ‘Student anarchist v Student accountant’. Not surprised you’re confused. Never had any time for anarchists, bunch of **ckwits imo. Enlightened despotism on the other hand...now there’s a thing.

$64m dollar question indeed. I agree totally. Let the wealth creators create but stop resenting society’s need for health providers, educators, carers and the other services and work, as you say, for the ‘common good’.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Swale: Thanks for a reasoned response.

I'm not as such proposing anything so much as throw something out there because rA asked for "my solution". Its far from a thought through theory, but I do find organised political parties simply polarise interests and lead to a more confrontational decision making environment: which by definition is unlikely to reach a consensus solution.

I have not encountered any painful experience as you suggest but just watched the opposing causes battering heads against each other for so many years to the detriment of the overall economy/country.

You are right, if you give humans freedom of choice, they will congregate together for security and to boost their chances of success and to scramble up the greasy pole, so a "no party" system is probably doomed to failure, but a model based on consensus and not confrontation is surely laudable, if idyllic.

Sadly power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely will stay the bye word of national politics - I accept the point about local politicians at council level and observe that no significant money is afforded to these politicians who do it as a passion rather than a career.

[Ram59]

Is it my fault you don't have the required knowledge?

Maybe you can enlighten me at the next Mensa conference, whenever they're allowed again.

[Trickytreesreds]

Yearh, lots of thick people in Derby as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UB6kYLDORE&ab_channel=MarkBraithwaite

[swaledale]

Swale: Thanks for a reasoned response.

I'm not as such proposing anything so much as throw something out there because rA asked for "my solution". Its far from a thought through theory, but I do find organised political parties simply polarise interests and lead to a more confrontational decision making environment: which by definition is unlikely to reach a consensus solution.

I have not encountered any painful experience as you suggest but just watched the opposing causes battering heads against each other for so many years to the detriment of the overall economy/country.

You are right, if you give humans freedom of choice, they will congregate together for security and to boost their chances of success and to scramble up the greasy pole, so a "no party" system is probably doomed to failure, but a model based on consensus and not confrontation is surely laudable, if idyllic.

Sadly power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely will stay the bye word of national politics - I accept the point about local politicians at council level and observe that no significant money is afforded to these politicians who do it as a passion rather than a career.

Consensus is an ideal, but its actually reached more often than not, given that all political party's are basically groupings of people with often quite disparate beliefs. I find it amusing to read the "echo chambers" on twitter whether it be the left who have this belief that somehow Corbyn didn't lose two elections and that if only everybody thought the way they did life would be wonderful, and also on the right where they are equally barmy.

Until someone comes up with a better model, then a political party is the best solution it seems to me, there compromises are worked out and at least some good things come out of them. Do they polarise interests? Or does the nature of elections mean that they have to find something that grabs the attention of the voters.

A step forward might be to ban all outside funding of political parties and award public funds on the basis of how many seats they win at an election, that at least would prevent the buying of policies whether that be from the left or the right. That and a genuinely elected upper chamber that could act as a balance on parliament.

I would take issue that unions versus business has been to the detriment of the country and the economy, after all apart from a few enlightened industrialists, it as unions who managed to at least get a reasonable wage, better safety better working hours etc. for the people who made the companies profits.

Sure as with all things there are Unions that obtained too much power and overplayed their hand, sometimes to the benefit of their members but often to the detriment of others.

But that only goes to prove that once people obtain power, it does corrupt, it also shows that once people get something - a better salary, shorter working hours, they tend to forget that by and large without the unions they would not have benefitted.

I tend to think that voters do get the government they deserve.

[swaledale]

Maybe you can enlighten me at the next Mensa conference, whenever they're allowed again.

Knowledge can be acquired by anyone if they want it, its not necessarily a question of IQ.