OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

By Liberal/university snob, I am aiming mainly at London. That seems to be full of extremes singing the same anti Tory song
The scruffs, protesting etc I understand.
But the university, plummy voiced activists. Who are far from working class, yet seem to think my opinion is so wrong, pisses me right off.
Have listen to this clown. The accent etc, wants to be a doctor and wishes him a "horrible death"

Probably never done a days graft in her life, nor striggled having enough money or finding a job to feed the family.
So far detached from socialism it's laughable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpRlGAv6Ifo&ab_channel=Dr.HannibalLester

As for the flag waving.
Well, it depends how you mean it. What's wrong with proud of your nationality?
Why does elements in Labour want to shame me for being British?
Why does elements in Labour slur Brexit voters as thick racist little englanders? ( yes I know that sounds like swale)
The only party playing flag hijacking at the moment is Labour, with Starmer getting ridiculed from within his own party.

Its things like this and Labour councillors cheering on the French and EU with their games, that gets folks back up.
It may be what you want to hear and good for you.
But ask yourself why Labour couldn't score in a brothel at the moment and whose opinion has more clout.

I agree about the ‘clown’, silly little girl saying things that she’ll probably be enormously embarrassed by at some time in the future.
Can’t help thinking your anti London, anti scruff, anti university educated, anti ‘plummy voiced’ betrays your own prejudices a little.

As regards the ‘flag waving’...it’s a bit of a proverbial ‘red rag to a bull’ with me. You have to admit that both the Union Jack and the England flag have been hijacked by the extreme right in recent years. What we now see is any Tory MP on TV being apparently incapable of performing without at least one Union flag in the immediate background (unless it’s Dominic Raab in which case he has to wear an additional UJ lapel badge!).

All very populist and the message really is...the Tories have a monopoly as far as the interests of the UK and national pride are concerned. It’s not true and I have absolutely no desire to ‘shame you for being British’...I’d just like us to be proud of being British because we represent a fairer, more tolerant and egalitarian society than is currently the case.

Not sure about voting on an issue that wasn’t in the manifesto, Andy. I was just explaining that my personal vote was, sadly, more anti-this particular government than pro anything at all. I admire Keir Starmer and I suspect that the incoming electoral results were brought about by two factors...the Boris bounce on the back of the vaccine success (despite the horrendous domestic Covid figures before then) and the shambles left behind by Corbyn and Co. Things will change...but just at the moment Labour are looking about as confused and rudderless as DCFC.

P.S. One ray of sunshine...Edwina Currie failed in her attempted political comeback...lost to Ruth George in Whaley Bridge. There is a God!

[Andy_Faber]

P.S. One ray of sunshine...Edwina Currie failed in her attempted political comeback...lost to Ruth George in Whaley Bridge. There is a God!

We can agree on that much with no conditions!

[Trickytreesreds]

P.S. One ray of sunshine...Edwina Currie failed in her attempted political comeback...lost to Ruth George in Whaley Bridge. There is a God!

I must admit, that did make me laugh.
Anyone that feels it fit to lie under John Major, must be short of quite a bit of colour in their life. Never mind destroying the egg business.

RA, one more on the flag thing.
The presidents of the US, Canada,France etc to name but a few, always give a speech with the national flag behind them.
What seems to offend you of that?

The EU despite being a non entity, flys its flag from everything and even has an anthem.


Yet there's politicians and members of the public, complaining about the Union flag flying from public buildings? WHY?
Also, who can forget Thornberry ridicuuling white van man, for flying the St George cross as England were playing. Sounding like a patronising snob.

The lawyer posted a picture on Twitter of a house with several England flags
draped over it and a white van parked on the drive.

Thornberry posted the caption “Image from #Rochester” on the tweet (despite it
actually being in Strood).

It was widely seen as mocking working class people and was condemned across
the political spectrum.
That is exactly what Liberal, university, pretend socialists do.

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Trickytreesreds;39773786]

RA, one more on the flag thing.
The presidents of the US, Canada,France etc to name but a few, always give a speech with the national flag behind them.
What seems to offend you of that?

The EU despite being a non entity, flys its flag from everything and even has an anthem.


Yet there's politicians and members of the public, complaining about the Union flag flying from public buildings? WHY?
Also, who can forget Thornberry ridicuuling white van man, for flying the St George cross as England were playing. Sounding like a patronising snob. /[QUOTE]

I admit there’s a contradiction as far as flags are concerned. Probably stems from the far right, from the NF to the BNP, hijacking the national flag as far as my reaction is concerned.
Have to admit I don’t have the same problem with the Welsh or French flags which is inconsistent on my part.
I have, tbf, been fairly repulsed by the nonsensical ‘patriotism’ and flag waving that I have seen very young children in the USA having to subscribe to and basically I mistrust all forms of populist patriotism.

I’ve never thought of complaining about national flags flying from public buildings but I think there is a contradiction as far as flag flying at times like the World Cup and the Olympics etc, in so much as it always seems to be the poorest/worst housing areas that fly the flag most spectacularly.
In other words...those who have probably benefited the least from our society seem to want to make the greatest patriotic gestures...and I have to admit that does puzzle me.

[Trickytreesreds]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39773799][QUOTE=Trickytreesreds;39773786]

RA, one more on the flag thing.
The presidents of the US, Canada,France etc to name but a few, always give a speech with the national flag behind them.
What seems to offend you of that?

The EU despite being a non entity, flys its flag from everything and even has an anthem.


Yet there's politicians and members of the public, complaining about the Union flag flying from public buildings? WHY?
Also, who can forget Thornberry ridicuuling white van man, for flying the St George cross as England were playing. Sounding like a patronising snob. /

I admit there’s a contradiction as far as flags are concerned. Probably stems from the far right, from the NF to the BNP, hijacking the national flag as far as my reaction is concerned.
Have to admit I don’t have the same problem with the Welsh or French flags which is inconsistent on my part.
I have, tbf, been fairly repulsed by the nonsensical ‘patriotism’ and flag waving that I have seen very young children in the USA having to subscribe to and basically I mistrust all forms of populist patriotism.

I’ve never thought of complaining about national flags flying from public buildings but I think there is a contradiction as far as flag flying at times like the World Cup and the Olympics etc, in so much as it always seems to be the poorest/worst housing areas that fly the flag most spectacularly.
In other words...those who have probably benefited the least from our society seem to want to make the greatest patriotic gestures...and I have to admit that does puzzle me.

Honest answer.
No straight answer to it either.

I am perplexed as to why, being British flag waver is scorned and ridiculed though. But waving the saltire or Y Ddraig Goch is perfectly nice and sweet. Especially the saltire as it is deemed as Nationalistic as you can get. (paint your face blue)

As point of interest, when I'm Thailand, it is flown everywhere. Thais are very proud of their nationality and culture.
Yet there is an element in this country, who want me to be ashamed of mine. That same element, is very evident in the Labour party, which is where the detachment comes in.

[Andy_Faber]

So, all the predictions about Boris' indiscretions having an impact on the various votes last week came to nought and the Labour Party, to steal a quote from dear old Bjorge Lillelian, 'took a Hell of a beating'. It seems that even some in the Labour Party are now openly expressing concerns about how out of touch the core of the party is (did I see the worrd 'woke' used? surely not), but not being party political I don't intend to, or even have any mandate for, gloating, and actually agree with Anna Soubry who said today even (some) Conservatives would agree having such a shambolic opposition isn't healthy for UK politics. The best analogy I've seen for once hasn't come from the mouth of a footy fan but out of a very irreverent music community I've been part of for many years. The second oldest member there (I'm the oldest) and (still) a died in the wool Labour voter said earlier 'Voting Labour now is like a Van Morrison fan raving about 'Latest Record Project' just based on his love of 'Astral Weeks'. Maybe you have to know more about Van Morrison...

So, serious question time for the labour voters, are you voting for what labour is, what it was or what you hope it will become?

[ramAnag]

So, all the predictions about Boris' indiscretions having an impact on the various votes last week came to nought and the Labour Party, to steal a quote from dear old Bjorge Lillelian, 'took a Hell of a beating'. It seems that even some in the Labour Party are now openly expressing concerns about how out of touch the core of the party is (did I see the worrd 'woke' used? surely not), but not being party political I don't intend to, or even have any mandate for, gloating, and actually agree with Anna Soubry who said today even (some) Conservatives would agree having such a shambolic opposition isn't healthy for UK politics. The best analogy I've seen for once hasn't come from the mouth of a footy fan but out of a very irreverent music community I've been part of for many years. The second oldest member there (I'm the oldest) and (still) a died in the wool Labour voter said earlier 'Voting Labour now is like a Van Morrison fan raving about 'Latest Record Project' just based on his love of 'Astral Weeks'. Maybe you have to know more about Van Morrison...

So, serious question time for the labour voters, are you voting for what labour is, what it was or what you hope it will become?

I’m voting against what we’ve got and for what Labour, or maybe another party led by Starmer and distanced from the likes of Len McCluskey, can become.
I also love ‘Astral Weeks’...but it is, as you intimate, about half a century old now...still great to revisit and doubtless many musicians have learned from it...but it isn’t the future.

[Andy_Faber]

I’m voting against what we’ve got and for what Labour, or maybe another party led by Starmer and distanced from the likes of Len McCluskey, can become.
I also love ‘Astral Weeks’...but it is, as you intimate, about half a century old now...still great to revisit and doubtless many musicians have learned from it...but it isn’t the future.

that's interesting and the thoughtful answer I'd expect from yourself but most who don't like today appear to be looking back. IMO 'The Party That Isn't The Conservative Party' needs to address the issues of tomorrow not the issues of the seventies because that world is gone.

Its been interesting to listen to the various vox pops on the wireless today both regarding last week's shenanigans and the upcoming by-election that has become necessary, which out of the mouths of disenchanted Labour folk came words that could have been a Tricky post, you might not like it (and I don't much) but he nails it

Being musically perverse as ever, I'm more a fan of St Dominic's Preview

[ramAnag]

that's interesting and the thoughtful answer I'd expect from yourself but most who don't like today appear to be looking back. IMO 'The Party That Isn't The Conservative Party' needs to address the issues of tomorrow not the issues of the seventies because that world is gone.

Its been interesting to listen to the various vox pops on the wireless today both regarding last week's shenanigans and the upcoming by-election that has become necessary, which out of the mouths of disenchanted Labour folk came words that could have been a Tricky post, you might not like it (and I don't much) but he nails it

Being musically perverse as ever, I'm more a fan of St Dominic's Preview

There are so many great VM albums and songs, Andy...and all from the most miserable and unapproachable performer I’ve ever seen. Only once, at the first Knebworth, did he ever seem relaxed and happy. Every other time I’ve seen him he’s appeared to think he’s been doing the audience a huge favour by turning up. The late great Leonard Cohen, who had the reputation of ‘Mr. Misery’, was the absolute life and soul in comparison...a complete joy.

I agree the Labour Party, or whatever it is to become, needs to look forward. The World has changed and some of the problems of the seventies are no longer relevant. Some however are...there is still enormous inequality, there are still working conditions that are unacceptable, we need to address the twin issues of health and social care more than ever before, matters associated with climate change are increasingly important and our education system needs to escape from the myths of target setting and address the issues of why academic knowledge is so much more prestigious than practical abilities.

Personally I only see such matters being resolved by Labour or a Labour/Green alliance, under the leadership of such as Starmer, Nandy, Burnham and Reeves. As long as those such as Johnson, Rees Mogg, Patel and Gove dominate the Tory Party I see no desire for change...quite the opposite in fact.

[Andy_Faber]

Personally I only see such matters being resolved by Labour or a Labour/Green alliance, under the leadership of such as Starmer, Nandy, Burnham and Reeves. As long as those such as Johnson, Rees Mogg, Patel and Gove dominate the Tory Party I see no desire for change...quite the opposite in fact.

But they have a real fight on their hands even within their own party whilst it is so dominated by a (avoiding the W word for once) 'culturally progressive' faction who simply dismiss the issues (and therefore value) of the 'silent majority' in favour of their own trendy agendas.

[ramAnag]

I’m not sure who you think constitutes the ‘silent majority’ or what they stand for.
I’m not necessarily one for ‘trendy agendas’ but the more ‘tolerant’ - for want of an infinitely better word - views as regards women’s rights, Gay rights, disability and racial discrimination which have emerged since the 1950’s were probably all initially dismissed as ‘trendy’ and ‘new fangled’.
Not everything that is modern is good and not everything that is old fashioned is bad but we have to stop chucking the proverbial ‘baby out with the bath water’ and strive for a fairer and more egalitarian society imo. Can’t see modern Conservatism doing that.

[swaledale]

The pro-Brexit boss of pub chain JD Wetherspoon has urged the government to increase migration from the EU to deal with a shortage of workers in the hospitality sector.

Tim Martin, who campaigned for a hard Brexit, including leaving the single market and the end of freedom of movement which came with it, urged Boris Johnson to consider a new, “reasonably liberal” visa scheme.

What did these ****s think they wanted?

[swaledale]

More good news


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Brexit shrank UK services exports by more than £110bn over a four-year period, new research shows, highlighting the far-reaching trade implications of Britain’s decision to break away from the EU.

Experts at Aston University in Birmingham found that UK services exports from 2016 to 2019 were cumulatively £113bn lower than they would have been had the UK not voted to quit the EU in June 2016.*

The researchers calculated the figure by projecting how industries from IT and finance to business services would have grown if they had continued on their previous paths, and compared that with how they had actually progressed since the vote for Brexit. The gap was £113bn.*

[swaledale]

The fear is that Britain would no longer have to guarantee the “free movement” rights of EU citizens to live and work in this country, and Brits who have settled in Europe would lose the same rights.

But Leave campaigners have said the fears are unfounded, saying the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties will protect everyone’s free movement rights. Actually it doesn't. it only guarantees citizens rights within a state.

International law can be tricky for the layman to interpret, so we asked a number of leading academics who specialise in these areas for their views.

Unusually, there was almost complete agreement from our expert panel. This is what they said…

EU citizenship ends with Brexit

If Britain withdraws, Brits will no longer be EU citizens, and EU citizens will lose their right to live in the UK based on the EU treaties.

Any arrangements that allow UK citizens to continue to live and work in the rest of the EU – and the other way around – will have to be negotiated.

So another big lie told by Vote leave.

[MadAmster]

Ever since the vote, the British Consulate/Embassy has had regular sessions, online and in person, with British expats over here keeping us up to date on the state of the negotiations and, when there was any action we had to take, what to do and where to do it to ensure you could stay.

I presume the UK representatives in Spain and elsewhere in Europe will have done exactly the same. Any UK expat who, as has happened with quite a few (a lot?) in Spain, "has had to move back to the UK" only has themselves to blame. They have either not bothered to attend meetings or simply believed everything would be "OK".