OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

The mods aresole controllers

Clever...but leave m a c out of it.

Anyway...if you’re not going to answer, for whatever reason, back on topic as requested/ordered.
Is there a parallel between the quest for Scottish independence and Brexit?
Seems Ms. Sturgeon resigned at least partly because of the unhealthy divisions in Scotland and the fact that only about 45% of Scots now support independence. Sound familiar?
Didn’t Brexit happen with the support of 37.4% of the electorate? They could only aspire to 45% support.
Seems support for Scottish Independence is on the wane. Seems there’s another parallel with Brexit there.

[Andy_Faber]

Clever...but leave m a c out of it.

Anyway...if you’re not going to answer, for whatever reason, back on topic as requested/ordered.
Is there a parallel between the quest for Scottish independence and Brexit?
Seems Ms. Sturgeon resigned at least partly because of the unhealthy divisions in Scotland and the fact that only about 45% of Scots now support independence. Sound familiar?
Didn’t Brexit happen with the support of 37.4% of the electorate? They could only aspire to 45% support.
Seems support for Scottish Independence is on the wane. Seems there’s another parallel with Brexit there.

There’s more of a difference than a parallel in that, purely anecdotally but I am up there a lot, there are few Scots over voting age who a) arent aware of the issue, b) don’t have a basic understanding of what it means (and for the most part an acceptance that there’s a lot they DON’T know about any Scexit ‘deal’) and c) wouldnt convert their belief into a vote come the time. So much more aware/committed than English equivalents. Mac may disagree.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Clever...but leave m a c out of it.

Anyway...if you’re not going to answer, for whatever reason, back on topic as requested/ordered.
Is there a parallel between the quest for Scottish independence and Brexit?
Seems Ms. Sturgeon resigned at least partly because of the unhealthy divisions in Scotland and the fact that only about 45% of Scots now support independence. Sound familiar?
Didn’t Brexit happen with the support of 37.4% of the electorate? They could only aspire to 45% support.
Seems support for Scottish Independence is on the wane. Seems there’s another parallel with Brexit there.

No

[swaledale]

I agree about ‘Thicky’...it’s an obvious and childish nickname. Calling yourself Tricky is actually inviting it, but it’s juvenile...we’re adults so let’s do without it.

‘Rear gunner’ is only ever aimed at me...and always only in connection with Swale. That’s ridiculous...I seldom disagree with Swale over politics...that’s true...but then I equally rarely disagree with mac, MA and Sith but receive no ‘abuse’ for that. Frankly I don’t give a duck, it’s a piece of nonsense dreamt up by GP and sometimes also used by Tricky and Andy. Why that should be...I don’t know...neither do I care, but again...we’re adults so what’s the point?

I don’t think ‘gammon’ is a ‘pejorative term based on skin tone’...I think it’s a p*ss take out of indignant white older males who’s faces become flushed with anger in certain situations. Personally I wouldn’t use it because it opens the user up to accusations which compromise his/her original argument. Another we could do without imo.

A final point on the question of a second moderator. You have repeatedly (and privately) told me that being a mod isn’t ‘easy’, AF.
I’m sure you’re right and I can’t imagine why anyone would want to be one...but you undoubtedly did and actually filled Rats’ shoes astonishingly quickly.
Let’s be honest...if everything was all fine and dandy on the forum we wouldn’t have had the discussions of the last couple of days and we wouldn’t have had just one new ‘signing’ (Sith...assuming Ramshank is actually a ‘returnee’) in the last God knows how long...so why not lessen the load and give MA a go?

I think rA I would ahve to say this is you "banging on" about the mod situation! Not really sure why its such a key issue with you? Not quite sure how having a second Mod would have affected the discussion that has taken place over the past few days either?

Anyway now we have all agreed a way forward can we get back on topic who who should ahve succeeded Cameron as PM back in 2016 as one poster seems convinced that is the topic for this thread!

[swaledale]

Clever...but leave m a c out of it.

Anyway...if you’re not going to answer, for whatever reason, back on topic as requested/ordered.
Is there a parallel between the quest for Scottish independence and Brexit?
Seems Ms. Sturgeon resigned at least partly because of the unhealthy divisions in Scotland and the fact that only about 45% of Scots now support independence. Sound familiar?
Didn’t Brexit happen with the support of 37.4% of the electorate? They could only aspire to 45% support.
Seems support for Scottish Independence is on the wane. Seems there’s another parallel with Brexit there.

Interesting take, but one it seems to me that Ms Sturgeon has resigned because she has had 8 years in this job, 25 years in politics and cannot see Independence being achieved for possibly another 5 - 10 years and wants her life back! I've touched on this before normally when GP makes his derogatory comments about politicians, being a serious politician (as distinct from playing at it like Johnson) is a full on draining life and I've witnessed at first hand what it takes.

Anyway this should be on another O/T thread really.

[ramAnag]

Interesting take, but one it seems to me that Ms Sturgeon has resigned because she has had 8 years in this job, 25 years in politics and cannot see Independence being achieved for possibly another 5 - 10 years and wants her life back! I've touched on this before normally when GP makes his derogatory comments about politicians, being a serious politician (as distinct from playing at it like Johnson) is a full on draining life and I've witnessed at first hand what it takes.

Anyway this should be on another O/T thread really.

Au contraire Swale...it’s absolutely on topic. It’s comparing one politician’s possible avoidance of harmful division with those who caused the Brexit division via a seemingly much smaller mandate. Well that was the intention.

[swaledale]

Mm a rather tenuous connection! About the only connection Brexit has with Scottish Independence is that much was made of being a member of the EU as a member of the UK only for this not to be the case 2 years later!

Your quoting percentages, but the 45% in favour of independence is surely the same as 52%+ being in favour of Brexit? I.e. it was in a referendum which saw voters basically split down the middle, albeit that wasn't in the case of Brexit reflective of all voters, just those who voted.

Not entirely certain that Sturgeon was not divisive either, given the country is split on independence and further split on the Gender recognition issues. There is a considerable proportion of the electorate who would say she focussed far too much on Independence and not enough on running the devolved government.

[Trickytreesreds]

Sturgeon was so obsessed with independence and picking a fight with West Minster, that the day to day running of Jock land nose dived.
Under her tenure. the NHS/Education/sevices bombed, despite the Scots getting nearly 2k per head more spent on them. Death from drink/drugs have doubled.

I also have Scot relatives and this was indeed at the forefront of their thinking. They never wanted independence granted, but like they said, if its crap now under the SNP, how bad would it be without the UK?

NB, RA.
Your 45% figure is probably worse than the 37% figure you use, that voted for Brexit.
It is a survey of voters that can / will vote only.
The survey in Scotland is flawed anyway. If you look at the Scottish map coloured, the independents are concentrated in 2 main areas. One of them being Glasgow, with a lot of Irish links.

The Scots may well turn back to Labour now, seeing as Starmer is saying Brexit is over. That is a damned sight better than SNP rabble rousing.
Labour need to understand how they lost it in the first place.
Its 2 years since we left, its time everyone shut the feck up trying to undermine it and work with it.

[ramAnag]

Mm a rather tenuous connection! About the only connection Brexit has with Scottish Independence is that much was made of being a member of the EU as a member of the UK only for this not to be the case 2 years later!

Your quoting percentages, but the 45% in favour of independence is surely the same as 52%+ being in favour of Brexit? I.e. it was in a referendum which saw voters basically split down the middle, albeit that wasn't in the case of Brexit reflective of all voters, just those who voted.

Not entirely certain that Sturgeon was not divisive either, given the country is split on independence and further split on the Gender recognition issues. There is a considerable proportion of the electorate who would say she focussed far too much on Independence and not enough on running the devolved government.

Ohhhh! Are we having a spat? GP will be excited!

Seriously though...I think we have our wires crossed. All I’m suggesting is that Scottish independence has divided the Scottish nation, just as Brexit divided the UK. I believe it’s regarded as one of the reasons behind Sturgeon’s resignation, although I totally accept the others you’ve provided.
If Sturgeon has resigned partly because of the divisiveness she has (again partly) caused then it is to her credit and in stark contrast to the collection of Westminster politicians (and NF) who sought to personally profit from the divisiveness of Brexit.

[ramAnag]

NB, RA.
Your 45% figure is probably worse than the 37% figure you use, that voted for Brexit.
It is a survey of voters that can / will vote only.
The survey in Scotland is flawed anyway. If you look at the Scottish map coloured, the independents are concentrated in 2 main areas. One of them being Glasgow, with a lot of Irish links.

The Scots may well turn back to Labour now, seeing as Starmer is saying Brexit is over. That is a damned sight better than SNP rabble rousing.
Labour need to understand how they lost it in the first place.
Its 2 years since we left, its time everyone shut the feck up trying to undermine it and work with it.

It’s actually just over three years since we left, over six years since the Referendum and 37.4% isn’t a figure I ‘use’...it’s the proportion of the electorate who physically voted to leave the EU...although not necessarily for what actually happened.

[swaledale]

Ohhhh! Are we having a spat? GP will be excited!

Seriously though...I think we have our wires crossed. All I’m suggesting is that Scottish independence has divided the Scottish nation, just as Brexit divided the UK. I believe it’s regarded as one of the reasons behind Sturgeon’s resignation, although I totally accept the others you’ve provided.
If Sturgeon has resigned partly because of the divisiveness she has (again partly) caused then it is to her credit and in stark contrast to the collection of Westminster politicians (and NF) who sought to personally profit from the divisiveness of Brexit.

No we are having a debate where our opinions differ! Quelle surprise we are different people, who agree on some matters and differ on others.

I do disagree with the idea that Sturgeon is resigning even partly due to the division in Scotland over independence. Lets face she knows how divisive it is and yet continued to push for it even after the 2014 referendum. I mean she took the leadership after that no vote, to further the cause of Scottish Nationalism. So no I don't she is resigning even partly due to the division, its basically as she said, the toll of being a politician but also she knows there is no reasonable prospect of achieving even a referendum on Independence in the medium term and therefore is walking away as she cannot achieve what she wants in politics.

I concur with your query from TTR, as to who or what is undermining Brexit, it is **** show, was always going to be a **** show and now its a question of reality hitting home and trying to work to reduce the ill effects, joining the single market and customs union will be the next step and probably by Starmer within the life time of his government. Economic reality will dictate that.

[Andy_Faber]

Ohhhh! Are we having a spat? GP will be excited!

Seriously though...I think we have our wires crossed. All I’m suggesting is that Scottish independence has divided the Scottish nation, just as Brexit divided the UK. I believe it’s regarded as one of the reasons behind Sturgeon’s resignation, although I totally accept the others you’ve provided.
If Sturgeon has resigned partly because of the divisiveness she has (again partly) caused then it is to her credit and in stark contrast to the collection of Westminster politicians (and NF) who sought to personally profit from the divisiveness of Brexit.

Scottish ‘independence’ was ticking along nicely through ever greater devolution and imo Salmond and Sturgeon polarised the nation by pushing for the extreme option (and taking their eyes off other issues). The GR bill has really gone down badly with the plebs (I believe nearly 2 to 1 against) which hasn’t helped and she may have seen it as a final straw

[Geoff Parkstone]

Ohhhh! Are we having a spat? GP will be excited!

Isn't that known as friendly fire in the trade? Beware you might go down with PTSD.

[Trickytreesreds]

Isn't that known as friendly fire in the trade? Beware you might go down with PTSD.

I think the correct term is blue on blue
If ever there was an oxymoron concerning RA and Swale, there it is.

THIS IS A JOKE, BEFORE THE ROCKETS GO BALLISTIC.

[swaledale]

Scottish ‘independence’ was ticking along nicely through ever greater devolution and imo Salmond and Sturgeon polarised the nation by pushing for the extreme option (and taking their eyes off other issues). The GR bill has really gone down badly with the plebs (I believe nearly 2 to 1 against) which hasn’t helped and she may have seen it as a final straw

Not sure J K Rowling could be considered a pleb, but yes its has further divided opinion, though in reality, it doesn't change the current situation regarding the transgender situation and access to women's spaces, that's been happening for years. I recall back in 1990's we interviewed a trans person and there was great discussion as to if they were hired which toilets they would use. Society needs to figure out a way to manage this situation sensibly and with sensitivity to all concerned. a GRC does is enable somebody who has transitioned to be married or even buried etc. as a woman, but I'm not going to open that can of worms further!!

Yes the obvious option to pursue after 2014 was devolution max, which I believe was on offer, but the SNP wanted the extreme option, possibly influenced by their electoral success both at Holyrood and Westminster. That way they could easily have been much closer to independence and perhaps the Welsh approach has shown that to have been the better option?