OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[SithHappens]

Can i buy that a few more 'enlightened' 'brexiteers' knew it was going to take 5,10,15 years for things to get on an even footing before it started to improve? Yes, Can I buy that those in the age group that had the biggest share of leave votes (The over 75's) voted for something that they knew they wouldn't start to see the benefit of until they were probably dead then..No, i cant buy that.

They could of course argue they were doing it for todays young people, but as todays young people voted in favour of remaining then surely let them choose for themselves?

We can argue that it would have been better had it not been the tories handling it, but we all knew who was in power and likely to be so for the bulk of the brexit negotiations so that as a defence for it not going aswell as it could have is a irrelevant.

Anyway the new agreement in NI should it get through will make things better for the haulage business where my wife is a director, by better i mean it will be better than its been since brexit, but still not as good as it was before, but hey they apparently aren't allowed to complain because they have managed to keep their heads above water and aren't living in poverty.

Funny how Rishi is walking around like a dog with two ..... and has bizarrely claimed 'his post-Brexit deal meant Northern Ireland was the world’s “most exciting economic zone” with access to both EU and UK markets'. Ermmmm......Great idea that who would have thought of it???

As Swale says we are told about the rules and regulations aspect of not being in the EU but there seems to be a lack of clarity around what those rules and regulations are that we are much better off without.

We can also argue about lies on both sides and as TTS says its been done to death but if i spot an idiot about to try and cross the M1 in rush hour wearing a blindfold and go and tell him not to do it because he will probably not make it to the other side and will probably get killed, but somehow miraculously he makes it to the other side with nothing more than a few bumps and bruises, does that make me a liar?

[ramAnag]

Major/.Blair/.Brown/Cameron were all on the gravy train and have made a **** load of money out of it.

Hmmm...not sure about that, but when it comes to any EU ‘gravy train’ your ‘darling’ Farage perversely takes some beating.

[ramAnag]

I don't believe either Southern or Angry's disappearance from the forum have anything to do with being unable to defend Brexit! Neither individual ever backed down from an opinion and they certainly wouldn't leave the forum over such an issue! That's frankly preposterous.

Also please don't put words in my mouth. Brexit COVID and Putin have unquestionably had short term impacts on our current economic malaise. How short term remains to be seen. But I have said all along that Brexit is, in my view, a long game. There were always going to be short term disadvantages, and this we have seen. If a longer term benefit emerges remains an unknown. I'm not convinced, but most thinking Brexiteers - and I know a few - remain confident that it will come good, economically, in time .

Meanwhile the USE spectre has been eased into history.

So has my mind been changed in the last 3 years. No, it is what it is. I was a fence sitter who eventually fell off the fence onto the losing side. I got back up, dusted myself off and endeavour to make the best of the hand we've been dealt.

On the other hand, the Duprass twins were always on the losing side and continue to whine on. Have any of us, regardless of attitude, done anything to change anyone else's minds in this microcosm of opinion makers? I doubt it, either here or in the real world.

You may call it shoulder shrugging, I may call it pragmatism. The reality is that Brexit has had no material impact on my lifestyle, standard of living or day to day activities. Hence I see no point in angst ridden reactions to the odd minor inconvenience.

So in summary - 9000 posts have not changed my thoughts an iota. No more so than conspiracy theorists influenced my thoughts on COVID vaccines. Other people may have changed their views, maybe even because of your rhetoric and argument, rA, but they were probably fence sitters that leant towards the winning side in 2016

I haven’t ‘put words in your mouth’, GP.
Without looking back, which I don’t have time to do so can’t be more specific, you recently placed Brexit in the same category as Covid and the invasion of Ukraine.
The latter two were/are events beyond our control. Brexit has, imo, been equally damaging but was completely self inflicted.
I don’t think anyone knowingly or sensibly pursues a course of self harm so I doubt this is what even the most gullible of Brexiteers voted for.

As regards your argument that you don’t really care because ‘Brexit has had no material impact on my lifestyle, standard of living or day to day activities’...that seems to me to be an unbelievably poor and selfish argument.
You’re not, to the best of my knowledge, poor, disabled, black, a victim of domestic abuse, a refugee, a victim of famine/earthquake, a target of bullying or countryside sports enthusiasts etc but I’m sure you have an opinion and would offer support to at least some of those groups.

Finally...you say you have said ‘all along’ that Brexit is ‘a long game’...but you also always claim to have voted against it.
You have a more thorough economic understanding than most, but back in 2016 doesn’t that mean that your understanding was that the ‘long term’ implications didn’t stack up? Seeing as the shorter term realities have been disastrous I’m confused as to quite why you’re still defending it.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Let me try to elaborate in terms of a chess analogy. I'm not subscribing to this argument, but rather putting it out there. Sometimes a player will sacrifice a pawn or minor piece for the positional advantage and opportunities such a sacrifice brings with it. A thinking Brexiteer (and I accept that the Duprass may not believe such exist amongst the gammonery) might see the concept of Brexit in this way.

A spectator, seeing the player a piece down may assume that the sacrificer is losing unless he understands the strategy. If some unruly child then knocks the board over, we may never know what that strategy might have yielded.

I may have mentioned Brexit, COVID an Putin as all being influential in our current short term economic woes, but I can see (although not necessarily agree with) an argument that brexit's contribution thereto is all part of a bigger game.

The difference between our perspectives is, I suspect, that I'll eat dry toast today in order to get jam tomorrow. You want jam now and more jam tomorrow.

Your third paragraph about "you're not poor .." baffles me completely. Are you saying remainers are an oppressed minority group in need is sympathy and charity? I always thought they were basically members of an entitled middle class* who lost out in a referendum.

*based on credible Swalean analysis of Brexiteers being the very wealthy, gammons and the racist underclasses.

[swaledale]

Can i buy that a few more 'enlightened' 'brexiteers' knew it was going to take 5,10,15 years for things to get on an even footing before it started to improve? Yes, Can I buy that those in the age group that had the biggest share of leave votes (The over 75's) voted for something that they knew they wouldn't start to see the benefit of until they were probably dead then..No, i cant buy that.

They could of course argue they were doing it for todays young people, but as todays young people voted in favour of remaining then surely let them choose for themselves?

We can argue that it would have been better had it not been the tories handling it, but we all knew who was in power and likely to be so for the bulk of the brexit negotiations so that as a defence for it not going aswell as it could have is a irrelevant.

Anyway the new agreement in NI should it get through will make things better for the haulage business where my wife is a director, by better i mean it will be better than its been since brexit, but still not as good as it was before, but hey they apparently aren't allowed to complain because they have managed to keep their heads above water and aren't living in poverty.

Funny how Rishi is walking around like a dog with two ..... and has bizarrely claimed 'his post-Brexit deal meant Northern Ireland was the world’s “most exciting economic zone” with access to both EU and UK markets'. Ermmmm......Great idea that who would have thought of it???

As Swale says we are told about the rules and regulations aspect of not being in the EU but there seems to be a lack of clarity around what those rules and regulations are that we are much better off without.

We can also argue about lies on both sides and as TTS says its been done to death but if i spot an idiot about to try and cross the M1 in rush hour wearing a blindfold and go and tell him not to do it because he will probably not make it to the other side and will probably get killed, but somehow miraculously he makes it to the other side with nothing more than a few bumps and bruises, does that make me a liar?

I like that last analogy, so many times clever pricks do things they are warned not to do and somehow survive as if thats proof it was worth doing.

Ah well I guess I'll be waiting for a list of those confounded EU laws and regulations that are so onerous a long time!!

[SithHappens]

I like that last analogy, so many times clever pricks do things they are warned not to do and somehow survive as if thats proof it was worth doing.

Ah well I guess I'll be waiting for a list of those confounded EU laws and regulations that are so onerous a long time!!

Something something about bananas, wattage on your henry hoover etc etc. And of course uncontrolled borders because people could just come from anywhere else in the EU and live off benefits.

All of which have been debunked many times.

[ramAnag]

Let me try to elaborate in terms of a chess analogy. I'm not subscribing to this argument, but rather putting it out there. Sometimes a player will sacrifice a pawn or minor piece for the positional advantage and opportunities such a sacrifice brings with it. A thinking Brexiteer (and I accept that the Duprass may not believe such exist amongst the gammonery) might see the concept of Brexit in this way.

A spectator, seeing the player a piece down may assume that the sacrificer is losing unless he understands the strategy. If some unruly child then knocks the board over, we may never know what that strategy might have yielded.

I may have mentioned Brexit, COVID an Putin as all being influential in our current short term economic woes, but I can see (although not necessarily agree with) an argument that brexit's contribution thereto is all part of a bigger game.

The difference between our perspectives is, I suspect, that I'll eat dry toast today in order to get jam tomorrow. You want jam now and more jam tomorrow.

Your third paragraph about "you're not poor .." baffles me completely. Are you saying remainers are an oppressed minority group in need is sympathy and charity? I always thought they were basically members of an entitled middle class* who lost out in a referendum.

*based on credible Swalean analysis of Brexiteers being the very wealthy, gammons and the racist underclasses.

Those first three paragraphs are nothing but an exercise in fence sitting. I’ll send you some cream...

...and continuing the scone analogy...I don’t think your para’ 4 analogy is the ‘difference in our perspectives’ at all. I just don’t think ‘we’ should have voted to have the ‘jam’ taken away in the first place.

I largely subscribe to your interpretation of the unholy alliance which forms the ’Swalean analysis of Brexiteers’ although I’d add ‘elderly’ in there too as an additional factor...however that wasn’t my point.
You seem to want to distance yourself from an actual Brexit stance because it doesn’t impact upon you significantly.
I was simply suggesting that you - likewise myself - are comfortably unaffected by a great many scenarios but that doesn’t prevent us from offering an opinion, trying to introduce change, contributing support etc.

[swaledale]

Let me try to elaborate in terms of a chess analogy. I'm not subscribing to this argument, but rather putting it out there. Sometimes a player will sacrifice a pawn or minor piece for the positional advantage and opportunities such a sacrifice brings with it. A thinking Brexiteer (and I accept that the Duprass may not believe such exist amongst the gammonery) might see the concept of Brexit in this way.

A spectator, seeing the player a piece down may assume that the sacrificer is losing unless he understands the strategy. If some unruly child then knocks the board over, we may never know what that strategy might have yielded.

I may have mentioned Brexit, COVID an Putin as all being influential in our current short term economic woes, but I can see (although not necessarily agree with) an argument that brexit's contribution thereto is all part of a bigger game.

The difference between our perspectives is, I suspect, that I'll eat dry toast today in order to get jam tomorrow. You want jam now and more jam tomorrow.

Your third paragraph about "you're not poor .." baffles me completely. Are you saying remainers are an oppressed minority group in need is sympathy and charity? I always thought they were basically members of an entitled middle class* who lost out in a referendum.

*based on credible Swalean analysis of Brexiteers being the very wealthy, gammons and the racist underclasses.

Lets do some basic maths here, 46.5 million registered voters of which 17.4million voted Brexit.

There is a proven correlation between age, lack of educational attainment and deprivation with those who voted Brexit.

Namely older people 50+ and pensioners, most but not all comfortably off who are conservative with a small c.
Those in areas that have been ignored by successive governments (and actually targeted negatively by some) who saw (wrongly) the Brexit vote as a chance to overthrow the status quo, which to date hadn't served them well.
A set of people in business and most farmers, fishermen (what few remain, those that haven't sold off their quota abroad!) who for some reason thought Brexit would provide opportunities which were never going to materialise.
People who basically are racist and don't like immigration.
Simple folk who hadn't a clue to but thought the NHS was going to get £350 million and thought that seemed a good idea.

No rA isn't saying remainers are an oppressed minority group, neither are they basically members of an entitled middle class. Other wise the majority in favour of Remain in Northern Ireland and Scotland indicates that those countries are composed mostly of middle classes! Plus please do remember the vote was 51.89% in favour and 48.11% against. The estimated % of people who are middle class is 36% and given a considerable number in the leave camp would be categorised as middle class your assumption doesn't add up.

But lets face facts - as has been shown by the reworking of the protocol, the "oven ready" deal boasted about at the last election by Johnson was no such thing. In fact it clear that the whole negotiation process was flawed as the people handling it were incompetent buffoons.

So in your chess analogy, we basically have an very poor chess player making sacrifices that wont yield results.

The whole process has been hijacked by a cabal of very right wing people, some elected MP's, others business men who see an opportunity for themselves and others shadowy figures who exert undue influence over the Tory party in a way which is not in the interest of the UK.

Brexit delivered according to the vote, would ahve been a soft Brexit, indeed that was what was being intimated, there being no other way for the UK to "enjoy the same benefits outside the EU as in it" as stated by prominent Brexiteers. I for one would have accepted that, a Norway style solution.

That in the en dis what we will end up, with, its inevitable, economically the Uk will suffer without access to the single market. NI is already demonstrating this and now will be an even clearer demonstration as to how access to the UK market and the EU single market will be of benefit.

Even the blind can udnerstad what they cannot see.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Those first three paragraphs are nothing but an exercise in fence sitting. I’ll send you some cream...

...and continuing the scone analogy...I don’t think your para’ 4 analogy is the ‘difference in our perspectives’ at all. I just don’t think ‘we’ should have voted to have the ‘jam’ taken away in the first place.

I largely subscribe to your interpretation of the unholy alliance which forms the ’Swalean analysis of Brexiteers’ although I’d add ‘elderly’ in there too as an additional factor...however that wasn’t my point.
You seem to want to distance yourself from an actual Brexit stance because it doesn’t impact upon you significantly.
I was simply suggesting that you - likewise myself - are comfortably unaffected by a great many scenarios but that doesn’t prevent us from offering an opinion, trying to introduce change, contributing support etc.

Ok then, the difference is that I'm a marginal remainer who recognised the validity of the referendum and acts accordingly. You are a militant remainer who sits in the corner of the pub banging on about it nearly 7 years later to zero effect.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Lets do some basic maths here, 46.5 million registered voters of which 17.4million voted Brexit.

There is a proven correlation between age, lack of educational attainment and deprivation with those who voted Brexit.

Namely older people 50+ and pensioners, most but not all comfortably off who are conservative with a small c.
Those in areas that have been ignored by successive governments (and actually targeted negatively by some) who saw (wrongly) the Brexit vote as a chance to overthrow the status quo, which to date hadn't served them well.
A set of people in business and most farmers, fishermen (what few remain, those that haven't sold off their quota abroad!) who for some reason thought Brexit would provide opportunities which were never going to materialise.
People who basically are racist and don't like immigration.
Simple folk who hadn't a clue to but thought the NHS was going to get £350 million and thought that seemed a good idea.

No rA isn't saying remainers are an oppressed minority group, neither are they basically members of an entitled middle class. Other wise the majority in favour of Remain in Northern Ireland and Scotland indicates that those countries are composed mostly of middle classes! Plus please do remember the vote was 51.89% in favour and 48.11% against. The estimated % of people who are middle class is 36% and given a considerable number in the leave camp would be categorised as middle class your assumption doesn't add up.

But lets face facts - as has been shown by the reworking of the protocol, the "oven ready" deal boasted about at the last election by Johnson was no such thing. In fact it clear that the whole negotiation process was flawed as the people handling it were incompetent buffoons.

So in your chess analogy, we basically have an very poor chess player making sacrifices that wont yield results.

The whole process has been hijacked by a cabal of very right wing people, some elected MP's, others business men who see an opportunity for themselves and others shadowy figures who exert undue influence over the Tory party in a way which is not in the interest of the UK.

Brexit delivered according to the vote, would ahve been a soft Brexit, indeed that was what was being intimated, there being no other way for the UK to "enjoy the same benefits outside the EU as in it" as stated by prominent Brexiteers. I for one would have accepted that, a Norway style solution.

That in the en dis what we will end up, with, its inevitable, economically the Uk will suffer without access to the single market. NI is already demonstrating this and now will be an even clearer demonstration as to how access to the UK market and the EU single market will be of benefit.

Even the blind can udnerstad what they cannot see.

Yes, a soft Norwegian solution would have been by far the best way to achieve the goal, but it's my understanding that this wasn't available due to the pig headedness of both parties to the negotiation and so we got what we got which has exaggerated the difficulties

[ramAnag]

Ok then, the difference is that I'm a marginal remainer who recognised the validity of the referendum and acts accordingly. You are a militant remainer who sits in the corner of the pub banging on about it nearly 7 years later to zero effect.

Lol...bit harsh...tbh I never ‘bang on about it’ in the pub, although if it crops up - and it rarely, if ever, does - I’ll tell it as I see it.

Nothing remotely ‘militant’ about my stance either. Consistent? Yes. Intelligent? I hope so. Confrontational and aggressive? Never.

As for yours, ‘a marginal Remainer who recognised the validity of the referendum’? Or Mr. Undecided?

[SithHappens]

Surely continued discussion on here, in the pub, or anywhere should not be considered 'banging on' until such time its been recognised that either

A. Its always going to be a **** show, or
B. Its proven leaving was actually the better choice

As those who voted leave and claiming that it will take years, if not decades, for any benefit to be seen then it would seem this thread should remain open for a long time yet.

The fact it remains open means it invites discussion, if Andy doesnt want it discussed the lock the thread and ban future discussion.

[ramAnag]

Surely continued discussion on here, in the pub, or anywhere should not be considered 'banging on' until such time its been recognised that either

A. Its always going to be a **** show, or
B. Its proven leaving was actually the better choice

As those who voted leave and claiming that it will take years, if not decades, for any benefit to be seen then it would seem this thread should remain open for a long time yet.

The fact it remains open means it invites discussion, if Andy doesnt want it discussed the lock the thread and ban future discussion.

With respect Sith...you’re in danger of (re) opening a can of worms there. I agree with most of what you’ve said...but it’s not up to Andy.

His role is that of moderator and it doesn’t matter whether he ‘wants’ it discussed or not. He is there to ensure that what few rules we have are observed, NOT to start ‘locking threads’ and dictate what should be discussed. That is something decided by the interest generated in individual threads alone.

[MadAmster]

Do the Tories understand irony?

Sunak praising his new agreement with the EU on NI, because NI will be the only place in the world that is both outside and inside the single market which will give it a unique economic opportunity!!

I mean who knew that having access to the single market was economically advantageous to the UK???

IE - he believes they were right to take us out of exactly what he believes is right to put Northern Ireland into now... Kin Jackass!!

[swaledale]

Yes, a soft Norwegian solution would have been by far the best way to achieve the goal, but it's my understanding that this wasn't available due to the pig headedness of both parties to the negotiation and so we got what we got which has exaggerated the difficulties

It wasn't achieved because Johnson and Frost thought the best way of negotiating with the EU was bluster and threat, promise and sign anything with the certain knowledge they didn't intend to keep their word and actually planned and drew up legislation to break an international treaty!!

In part this was because they were playing to the **** the EU head bangers in the Tory party, but don't forget that prior to the referendum, both Frost and Johnson were actually supporting remain! They changed sides purely because they thought it would suit their personal ambitions, not because they believed Brexit would deliver for the UK, neither of them care about the UK!! So in a way playing hard ball whilst negotiating a ****ty unworkable deal was a game for them.

For all Sunak was complicit in this, he signed off on the original deal and supported it, he has at least shown that if one holds adult, sensible negotiations with the EU, they will negotiate. They didn't trust Johnson and lets face it who would, he has been proven to be a mendacious, lying, narcissistic, untrustworthy rogue long before Brexit!

It was the hard right on the Tory party who scuppered May's soft deal. It was obviously in the interests of the Eu to have an amicable split, but why would you put up with the immature posturing and insults from the UK?

Even with the deal on Ni thats been agreed, Johnson and the ERG were threatening to oppose it and rebel, but its clear that most realise that further turmoil within the Tory party is not going to enhance their already poor reputation with the voters. Johnson might just be a busted flush, which would be good news for the country, even though there are some incredibly thick Tory party members and MP's who would shive their respective tongues as far up his arse as they could manage given half a chance.

Whoever wins the next election, has the task of making a piss poor deal workable, whilst not upsetting the proles who believe Brexit will enhance their ****ty little lives.