Election Year or Fear!

[swaledale]

During my working life, the last 1/4 of which was in teaching, I have designed, built and run computer centres. That includes fire prevention, electrical safety, backup measures etc etc etc.. Pen pusher? Far from it. Train drivers are there, mainly, for when the "system" fails or outside influences, such as some idiot being on the tracks or a broken down vehicle at a crossing requires instant handling to prevent a crash. Of course, if it's a suicide attempt, that's likely to be a last second jump and they can't react quickly enough. You minimise the train drivers task. It's similar to an airline pilot, in essence. A train is perfectly capable of running itself but, as yet, there's no replacement been found for the human intervention when needed.

You over state the automation of main line trains at least, though metro and underground services, being predictable and on dedicated tracks are almost auto operated but as you say require intervention sometimes and of course at stations to make sure train doesn't depart before passengers on board. On the main line however, other than the auto breaking if a red signal is passed, the driver sets the train moving, handles breaking and acceleration and reacts to signals, has to respond to different weather conditions and know the route so they know where they are in the dark or bad visibility. Plus of curse fault finding, its less physical obviously than in steam days, but still takes knowledge and skill and vigilance. Plus of course one the early starts, late finishes and 7 day working.

The salary level now is largely due to privatisation, whereby the different train companies poach staff off each other, because there are not enough to go round. The pay rates aren't uniform and depend upon whether your driving long distance or local trains etc. Not sure why train drivers should be demonised for managing to get higher wages due to a shortage of drivers, any more than HGV drivers should be for taking advantage of a shortage of drivers to push up their wages.

[swaledale]

Reform's Tice's latest bull**** is that the majority of UK citizens want to leave the ECHR, funny that no poll shows this to be the case, but then Reform do ahve strange ideas about what the ordinary voter wants!!

[MadAmster]

You over state the automation of main line trains at least, though metro and underground services, being predictable and on dedicated tracks are almost auto operated but as you say require intervention sometimes and of course at stations to make sure train doesn't depart before passengers on board. On the main line however, other than the auto breaking if a red signal is passed, the driver sets the train moving, handles breaking and acceleration and reacts to signals, has to respond to different weather conditions and know the route so they know where they are in the dark or bad visibility. Plus of curse fault finding, its less physical obviously than in steam days, but still takes knowledge and skill and vigilance. Plus of course one the early starts, late finishes and 7 day working.

The salary level now is largely due to privatisation, whereby the different train companies poach staff off each other, because there are not enough to go round. The pay rates aren't uniform and depend upon whether your driving long distance or local trains etc. Not sure why train drivers should be demonised for managing to get higher wages due to a shortage of drivers, any more than HGV drivers should be for taking advantage of a shortage of drivers to push up their wages.

That'll teach me not to fact check GP

[MadAmster]

The current inflation and cost of living crisis is mainly profit driven rather than being wage driven.

[Andy_Faber]

Reform's Tice's latest bull**** is that the majority of UK citizens want to leave the ECHR, funny that no poll shows this to be the case, but then Reform do ahve strange ideas about what the ordinary voter wants!!

I think Richard is just trying to keep an ‘on the bubble’ issue in the public eye. He is indeed factually incorrect but the but the minority is a large one and who knows when the next incident might arise which moves the dial

[ramAnag]

I actually agree that that’s his aim, and it’s clearly such a great idea as, to the best of my knowledge, the only other countries to have removed themselves from the ECHR to date are Belarus and Russia.
Wouldn’t it be wonderful to be in such company? Not surprised he’s called ‘Dick’.

[Trickytreesreds]

RA, Thicky is just parroting what Trice reform **** has been saying on social media, that defending what Farage earns, saying he "works" hard, whilst train drivers don't.

I mean fancy an MP from a private company that supposedly backs the "ordinary working" man, attacking a group of workers? Thicky hasn't a clue what a train drivers job entails (actually he hasn't a clue full stop) and all this talk of salary comparisons just demonstrates how Thicky, a supposed flag bearer for "liberal" capitalism has absolutely no idea about these matters.

If one was going to start attacking ludicrous salaries, I'd have thought professional footballers and especially those in the premier league would be the place to start, I mean how many GCSE's are required to earn £100k plus a week?

If the value and complexity of a job equalled its salary then there are plenty of roles that society depends upon which warrant more than say an investment banker, a TV presenter Journalists and indeed many Managers and CEO's!

Anyway one wonders, if driving a train was that simple for the pay, why Thicky when mining ceased didn't go for it?

You have no idea of what my engineering understandings are. You may think, you are the wikipedia of DCM but sorry, you aint.
As an apprentice, I had to become familiar with all sorts of machinery and have driven locomotives on the sidings shunting and locomotives underground. You don't understand the mechanicals of the equipment and their requirements if you cannot operate them. Fixing. rebuilding them was then part of the education. I would definitely pit my wits against yours on that score.

Trains are fully automated in many parts of the world. To put right RA, driver error, does happen. perhaps the refusal of unions, to implement more tech could have prevented this? Cars have become high tech now, yet the driver himself causes the crash, when said tech is not being used.
No one has has thus given it any thought and comparison to what I said, as to how a train driver, warrents the same pay as a modern day fighter pilot at squadren leader 8 level?

Over paid, for a shoddy service, by Union design.

PS have another swig, kick the cat You'll feel better

[SithHappens]

BTW - it's not just FootyMad either, there's a handful of similar posters on dcfcfans and a plethora on FB. I'm seriously contemplating leaving all 3.

All platforms are the same. I post on popside and plenty of it there too.

Dcfcfans has thousands of members so there is always going to be some.

[Andy_Faber]

All platforms are the same. I post on popside and plenty of it there too.

Dcfcfans has thousands of members so there is always going to be some.

Not familiar with Popside or DCFCFans but on fb pages it seems to be the subject matter thats the common denominator for unrest. Politics obviously

[Geoff Parkstone]

Depends on what terms and conditions are being looked at by the companies. If it's upping the number of weekends worked from 26 to 39 and then cutting the premium payments for weekend working or upping the number of night shifts and, again, cutting premium payments then I'm with the drivers who would, basically, be paying for their own pay increase. If it's the other things in the T&C's the companies wish to change, then mI'd likely come down on the side of the companies UNLESS, as the drivers claim, some of those changes will cause a decrease in passenger safety.

Might the current drivers be more willing to income changes if the companies came with a plan to keep their level of remuneration stayed where it is and a lower level was agreed for newcomers to the industry?

At KLM, pilots, together with the company, looked at costs and profitability and decided that the current levels of remuneration were not sustainable. They came to an agreement that saw the current staff keeping their levels of pay and newcomers earning less. At a later date, when the company got into financial trouble, the pilots lent the company something like €2Bn to keep it afloat and had, IIRC, a 2 year pay freeze. Could UK rail drivers be persuaded to be as flexible?

Be nice to think they would be flexible but I don't see the union accepting dual pay rates, it's hardly "United we stand"

Amazed that KLM pilots found 2bn to lend even if Euros. If the train drivers had that much collectively I'd be shocked considering their claims of poverty and the need for substantial increases, but it would be interesting to see if they would invest in their own sustainable future. Call me a cynic, but....

[Geoff Parkstone]

That'll teach me not to fact check GP

Depends whose facts are considered facts not opinions ☺️

[ramAnag]

To put right RA, driver error, does happen. perhaps the refusal of unions, to implement more tech could have prevented this? Cars have become high tech now, yet the driver himself causes the crash, when said tech is not being used.

No idea how that ‘puts me right’…and this may come as a surprise, but technology is rarely faultless. It does go wrong.

[swaledale]

I think Richard is just trying to keep an ‘on the bubble’ issue in the public eye. He is indeed factually incorrect but the but the minority is a large one and who knows when the next incident might arise which moves the dial

As with Farage and his turn the NHS into an insurance system, its an agenda driven by those billionaires who are pushing for deregulation and the stripping back of protections so that there are opportunities for more profitable exploitation of the populace. Tice is an idiot, listen to what he says for 5 mins and no sentient person believes he has anything useful to say.

Its only an issue in the eyes of a few right wing zealots, plus a few idiots in the Tory party who are still banging on about a "foreign" court not allowing the Uk government to break international law.

Otherwise, the only people who even think that leaving the ECHR, are those who frankly haven't a clue what it does, why it was constituted or how it provides protection for their human rights. The thing about international law, is that whilst as with any law or regulation, it might appear inconvenient, if a country starts to decide what is or isn't convenient legally, then that country is on a slippery slope to authoritarianism. Even with the ECHR, there are still areas where the UK and others slip beyond what is acceptable.

What incident may arise that would justify leaving the ECHR? Most people in this country aren't that stupid fortunately.

[MadAmster]

Be nice to think they would be flexible but I don't see the union accepting dual pay rates, it's hardly "United we stand"

Amazed that KLM pilots found 2bn to lend even if Euros. If the train drivers had that much collectively I'd be shocked considering their claims of poverty and the need for substantial increases, but it would be interesting to see if they would invest in their own sustainable future. Call me a cynic, but....

To be precise, it was their pension fund that stumped up the cash to save the company following a vote by the pilots.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Aha ..