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One thing Brexit has done for sure is to show us who the arrogant, patronising, pedantic, non patriotic people are in this country, I think Remainers have to agree with that.
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Pedro, I think Och Pie is batting on your side.Originally posted by PedroTheFisherman66 View PostComment
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Two things really. Geographically we're an island nation (or group of nations) separate from the main European continent, but more importantly from my point of view, I think anything that threatens to 'lock' us into the European political superstructure needs to be opposed, and that's always what the European Union will be about, sometimes very obviously and sometimes more subtly disguised.Originally posted by Elite_Pie View Post
Brexit was a step in the right direction in terms of making that more difficult to do, and giving the British public the opportunity to express their view, but of course it was never going to mean the European 'blob' was going to give up trying to exert its influence. We've seen it since through various manipulative efforts to try to discredit and reverse the outcome and gaslight those who voted leave into thinking it was a mistake.Comment
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1959, I think you're being far too hard on yourself. I don't see you as being non-patriotic.Originally posted by Magpies1959 View PostComment
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Not for the first time, you think wrong. Very wrong.Originally posted by Magpies1959 View Post
How is it arrogant, patronising, pedantic and non-patriotic to want the best for your country and the people who live in it?Comment
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I think this thread shows that everyone wants what’s best for the country, just people have different ideas how we get there.Originally posted by Elite_Pie View PostComment
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Being arrogant, patronising and pedantic has nothing to do with wanting the best for your country. The irony of your first sentence though EP.Comment
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Absolutely. It all boils down to a matter of opinion and interpretation. That's why we have elections and the occasional referendum.Originally posted by keldsyke View PostComment
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That's where we differ. I always though it possible to be part of Europe but still retain national identity.Originally posted by jackal2 View Post
If we want to go Morris Dancing on the village green we can.Comment
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That's exactly what I was trying to tell him, but it's obviously not sunk in.Originally posted by keldsyke View Post
In his world if you're anti-Brexit then you're anti-British.Comment
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Being 'a friend of Palestine' doesn't impute one's approval of Hamas. They are a terrorist organisation with evil aims, but let's face it Israeli behaviour of recent years, now compounded by the election of the evil Netanyahu, has asked for trouble.Originally posted by keldsyke View Post
Over 7,000 Palestinians have been murdered in the past 10 years compared with just over 300 Israelis.Comment
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The terrorists apologist, what a surprise coming from the uneducated left wing of the Liebour party. You call Netanyahu evil, that has to be the biggest laugh for months, you moron.Originally posted by sidders View PostComment
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Calls someone uneducated, then resorts to calling him a moron.Originally posted by JoePass View Post
Not sure who is the uneducated one there!
Palestinians and Hammas are not one and the same thing.Comment
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This is a great post. Whenever I come across anyone who disparages the ECHR or the Convention, I ask exactly which article(s) in the Convention they disagree with. And I've yet to receive a proper answer. Rather, what's usually going on is that opponents don't think everyone deserves the same basic rights that people like them deserve. So it's not a problem with the Convention, but with the idea of basic, universal human rights. And often that's motivated by something pretty nasty.Originally posted by Kent Magpie View Post
To be fair, some people have just been misled by a constant stream of tabloid news reports about preposterous-sounding legal claims based on rights in the convention. These reports are often inaccurate or partial, either omitting key details or burying them at the end of the article, or they're reports about claims which will be unsuccessful. Which will never be reported.Comment
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Well, let's take that seriously as a view. Although in doing so, I'll probably be accused of being both patronising and pedantic.Originally posted by Magpies1959 View Post
Let's take "arrogant" and "patronising" together. There's a good argument to be made for this, since the Remain campaign was half-hearted and complacent at best. However, I think one of the mistakes it made was failing to properly articulate a lot of the benefits of the current arrangements which the campaigners thought people knew about. So... visa-free travel around Europe, including tourism. The right to live and work in other countries. Just how integrated our trade and economies are. Was taking this knowledge for granted arrogant and patronising, or was the mistake in assuming too much knowledge? The campaign certainly suffered from the involvement of Cameron and the half-hearted involvement of Corbyn.
"Pedantic" is an interesting one. And again, I think this is true. But then... international trade and international law require, by their very nature, detailed and precise thinking. It's done on pedantry, not on vibes or riffs or patriotism or three word slogans.
Brexiters complaining about Leavers being "pedantic" is just telling on themselves - about their own lack of detailed plans and detailed understanding. And frustration at having that pointed out. Throughout the negotiations, it's been pretty clear that the Leavers don't have a full grasp of the details or properly understood the consequences of what they were negotiating. There's that picture of Frost with no notes talking to counterparts who are properly prepared that really illustrate the point. And then we get the appeals for everyone to "come together" and "make Brexit work" which is essentially saying... we don't have a clue what we're doing, please could those who do who warned us against this folly do it for us?
"Patriotic"... others have commented on this already. And I'm starting to think this is the real dividing line. Some Leavers are what we can kindly call English/British Exceptionalists - they think that there's something different and special and better and the UK and about British people more generally compared to people from other countries, who are lesser. An unkind person might call this "racism" or "white supremacism".
Sometimes it's exactly that, but often it's more complicated than that. Some people think that there's something in British culture and history and institutions that leads to that superiority, not ethnicity. This belief leads to the view that a team of British trade negotiators not only could but would do better than a joint team of EU negotiators. It's the same view that leads to the view that England/Britain should churn out winning sporting teams on a much more regular basis than we do. Internationally, America excels at this kind of Exceptionalism, and France and the UK aren't that far behind.
Remainers, on the other hand.... they tend to think that the UK is just one country among many. That it has strengths and weaknesses, like other countries, and that sometimes we're better, and sometimes we're worse. They tend to think we've got things to learn from how other countries do things, as well as examples that other countries could learn from. They're proud of some aspects of British history but ashamed of others. Theirs is a much more nuanced patriotism that rejects "my country right or wrong" or supremacist versions of patriotism.
Or, as Elite said:
How is it arrogant, patronising, pedantic and non-patriotic to want the best for your country and the people who live in it?
But I think for some Leavers, that doesn't count as patriotic, because they define patriotism as British Exceptionalism.Comment
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