O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[bule1]

Difficult one to answer and don't think we will ever know which was the right path, not that it matters now anyway. We are where we are and need to make the best of it

[SmiffyPie]

Difficult one to answer and don't think we will ever know which was the right path, not that it matters now anyway. We are where we are and need to make the best of it

Therein lies the answer. Brexit could be made to work now that the Cons have lost power, trouble is a large proportion of Remainers appear to take pleasure in crowing about the wrong bits instead of just gritting their teeth and proving their worth by turning it into a more positive thing. The whole aftermath has turned into an exercise in cutting noses off to spite faces!

[OchPie]

I don't think Brexit can be made to work - but what's more interesting to me is that polling has consistently shown the British public thinks it was a bad idea and we should rejoin, but no credible politician is willing to make the case.

I suspect there may be no point until the Tories return to being the party of business and return to being soft-Europeans. I doubt the EU would take a proposal to return seriously until that happened. And of course, the media still screams "Brexit betrayal" for anything that might marginally improve the ease of trading with our closest and largest market.

[keldsyke]

I don't think Brexit can be made to work - but what's more interesting to me is that polling has consistently shown the British public thinks it was a bad idea and we should rejoin, but no credible politician is willing to make the case.

I suspect there may be no point until the Tories return to being the party of business and return to being soft-Europeans. I doubt the EU would take a proposal to return seriously until that happened. And of course, the media still screams "Brexit betrayal" for anything that might marginally improve the ease of trading with our closest and largest market.

The EU is fecked, finished, move on make the best of it, if the lefties turned their crying and whinging into positive action we would be in a far better place.

[OchPie]

The EU is fecked, finished, move on make the best of it, if the lefties turned their crying and whinging into positive action we would be in a far better place.

There's plenty wrong with the EU but it's self-evidently not finished. Quite the opposite, I firmly predict that as the US retreats from a unipolar world and China asserts itself, being part of a larger bloc will start to seem like the only way to protect yourself.

Also, plenty of lefties voted for brexit and plenty on the right voted to remain. In any case it's not the responsibility of us remainers to fix what you broke. If we could have been in a far better place, it was your responsibility to make it happen, not ours. Don't cry that you failed to.

[Med Pie]

Some fair points, but I would reply to your last sentence. The issues can?t be resolved because despite the obvious issues with the EU, it was still in our best interests overall to remain.

In admitting the tiny, poor countries at significant cost to the rest, rather than raising standards across the EU, they ensure the bankrupting of the larger economies who must subsidise them. From memory, the last time I looked, I think only three or four countries were net, contributors, the rest being beneficiaries.

I always liken it to having won the pools and being comfortable for life but then, a horde of relatives descend and suddenly, the money you won is more thinly spread. Europe's wealth will evaporate in to the pockets of the corrupt, smaller countries and with the poorest country of all, Albania, waiting in the wings to join, expect that process to accelerate.

[Med Pie]

The Germans have already stated that the perpetrator of a car, ramming attack is an Afghan asylum seeker. Their President says he must be removed from the country and I'll bet they won't allow themselves to be hamstrung by the HRA.

Now that is good governance.

[SmiffyPie]

In any case it's not the responsibility of us remainers to fix what you broke. If we could have been in a far better place, it was your responsibility to make it happen, not ours. Don't cry that you failed to.

That is exactly what's wrong.

[i961pie]

The Germans have already stated that the perpetrator of a car, ramming attack is an Afghan asylum seeker. Their President says he must be removed from the country and I'll bet they won't allow themselves to be hamstrung by the HRA.

Now that is good governance.

That attack couldn?t have come at a worse time, the far right is growing stronger in Germany and I?m sure they will use that attack as ammunition against immigration.

[OchPie]

That is exactly what's wrong.

Why? That's how politics works. Those in charge do what they believe is right, and either bring the people along or get kicked out.

Brexit isn't any different. If it had been demonstrated how it would make things better, and help was asked for, it'd have been given. Indeed the country voted for an oven ready deal to get it over with (a lie, sadly, since it was always going to be an ongoing process to define our relationship with the EU). But Brexiters abdicating responsibility for their choice - nope, they don't get to do that. Make it work, or get out the way and let someone else take a different approach.

[i961pie]

Why? That's how politics works. Those in charge do what they believe is right, and either bring the people along or get kicked out.

Brexit isn't any different. If it had been demonstrated how it would make things better, and help was asked for, it'd have been given. Indeed the country voted for an oven ready deal to get it over with (a lie, sadly, since it was always going to be an ongoing process to define our relationship with the EU). But Brexiters abdicating responsibility for their choice - nope, they don't get to do that. Make it work, or get out the way and let someone else take a different approach.

I think most brexiters would point to the Covid epidemic and the war in Ukraine as being a major problem with how it’s gone so far. It was always going to take a long time before we would or wouldn’t see any benefits to us but those two things in particular were unseen.

[Mapperleypie]

That is exactly what's wrong.

The referendum was called by the Tories and the negotiations were all done by the last government. This is their Brexit, red-lines, sunlit-uplands, ruffled hair and all. A complete waste of government time and money to make the UK worse off, sold to the public on a pack of lies.

If Labour do want to fix any of this then they would need closer trading ties with Europe given they are our largest export market by far but the usual suspects will simply cry foul. As it is we have gone from being round the table in trading negotiations to simply a rule-taker. A national embarrassment.

[SmiffyPie]

The referendum was called by the Tories and the negotiations were all done by the last government. This is their Brexit, red-lines, sunlit-uplands, ruffled hair and all. A complete waste of government time and money to make the UK worse off, sold to the public on a pack of lies.

If Labour do want to fix any of this then they would need closer trading ties with Europe given they are our largest export market by far but the usual suspects will simply cry foul. As it is we have gone from being round the table in trading negotiations to simply a rule-taker. A national embarrassment.

Of course your points are valid, nobody is denying that, but what do we do about it? sit around wringing out our tear soaked handkerchiefs?
Anyway, onwards and upwards.

[Mapperleypie]

Of course your points are valid, nobody is denying that, but what do we do about it? sit around wringing out our tear soaked handkerchiefs?
Anyway, onwards and upwards.

No, we do what Starmer is now doing, meeting European leaders and stating the case for the UK and how we can best work together as opposed to the adversarial stance of the last government.

[bule1]

The referendum was called by the Tories and the negotiations were all done by the last government. This is their Brexit, red-lines, sunlit-uplands, ruffled hair and all. A complete waste of government time and money to make the UK worse off, sold to the public on a pack of lies.

If Labour do want to fix any of this then they would need closer trading ties with Europe given they are our largest export market by far but the usual suspects will simply cry foul. As it is we have gone from being round the table in trading negotiations to simply a rule-taker. A national embarrassment.

You are correct the Tories called for the vote but as a balance there were a large amount of Labour voters who voted leave and Corbyn did one of the best fence sitting displays we have ever seen when maybe offering a lead (as perhaps a leader should) woulod have been better.
P.S. Don't think for a second I believe that Cameron did any better.