OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

RamAnag your quote 'we take notice of (respect) those we believe 'qualified' to offer an opinion' is IMO a big problem and I'm sure that's why a lot of younger voters voted remain. They very often take note of their teachers at school and lectures at university because they believe they are qualified to opinions. Very often they are not. Many of them have never lived in real life but believe they are an authority on it. They instill on many of their students opinions that are not balanced. I have seen this from my own family and friends. Judgments should be made with an open mind after listening to both sides of an argument not preconceived by education. When I and probably you were young we left school in our mid *****, went to work and learn from the real world. Sadly now nearly everyone goes to 'uni' and does enter the real world till their mid twenties or later when their mind are set.

Not sure why you believe teachers and lecturers haven't 'lived in real life' rp. They may not have lived the same life as you but that doesn't make it any less 'real'.
Perhaps 'qualified' was the wrong word but you know as well as I do that in any debate, from this forum's more usual concern with football and DCFC to the reasoning behind the decision on which way to vote in the referendum, there are views which have credibility and those which don't.
Since the referendum I have heard many reasons for voting 'Leave' from...'I wanted to get rid of all the darkies', 'Well I wanted that Mr. Farage to be in charge', to 'It's good because the NHS now gets all that European money'. Such views are, imo, too stupid to carry any credibility with me. I don't, in all honesty, respect the people who hold them and I do wonder about their fitness to actually vote. What I don't know is how you 'legislate' for the situation unless we go to the other extreme and decide that because we're going to view every vote as equal in a democracy then it becomes compulsory to vote.

[AngryRam]

Had an interesting evening last night.. Went to some friends for dinner and they have a daughter who has just graduated.. Her boyfriend was their as well, also a recent grad.
The conversation inevitably got around to Britex and I was gobsmacked at their attitude. It was all about the now and them, they had not even considered most of the issues.. I guess the flip side of Swaleys argument in essence. It was all about them, nothing else mattered.. Apparently they can now not move freely within in EU. When pointed out that yes they would still be able to one they had passed the initial point of entry, mush as they do today.. Gobsmacked.. They will never be able to work in the EU apparently... Again when pointed out that you may have to fill in a few extra forms there is no reason they could not work in the EU, they went quiet.. I employ people from all,over the world.. The simple criteria is are you good enough.
They simply could not get their head around the fact that Europe will change.. We have a veto.. Yes we do but for how much longer? Did they really think the EU could effectively function if each country had a veto.. Here today, gone tomorrow.
They seemed to want everything served to them on a silver spoon.. They can't buy houses.. I seem to remember 15/16% interests rates when I started buying. Each generation has its challenges, it seemed to me that this generation are simply not ready for them.. Generalisation I know but worrying just the same.
Quite simply they had not looked outside their little bubble and voted in that way.. Are these people any different from the so called ignorant simpletons who voted leave based on little knowledge. All I am saying is that there was ignorance on both sides.

[swaledale]

Swaledale can't you see you are destroying your own arguments with a reply like that.

I wasn't advancing any arguments, i was expressing my frustration at posters who don't read posts or the context in which they are made!

Yes Angry, the generalisation that people who go to university know **** al about the world is about as true as saying those who are 50 plus and never have know what their talking about ignorance on all sides is true. The younger generation do though ahve a more liberal attitude to nation states than the older generation and some of what they say is true it will make it more difficult to work or do business within europe those few forms become expensive time consuming paperwork for individuals and busineses alike.

I still have yet to hear a coherent argument as to why leaving the Eu is better than staying in - no doubt IF the economy crashes people will be explaining how this economic pain is worth it! Trouble is it will be those I described who were on TV celebrating the Brexit who will suffer most... but then why should I give a ****? I'm alright jack!

[roger_ramjet]

Agreed Angry... voting remain does not give any moral high ground of a "thought out vote" to those that voted this way.

The idea of a compulsory vote is an introguing one Mangara. I think it is the case in a handful of countries including Australia Brasil and a few EU countries. What is difficult to comprehend is how you enforce it? Do you imprison non voters? If so under current legislation they lose the right to vote! Ironic.

Do you fine people for not voting? Lets say £100 to make it a worthwhile disincentive. Would have raised about £ 1.4 billion. Introduce 2 or 3 referenda per year and it could be a nice little earner.

Is the right to refuse to vote as central to democracy as the right to vote? What about spoiled ballot papers - is that not voting? If so you need to remove secret voting to enforce penalties against the spoilers? That isnt going to happen (hopefully).

Whilst the idea has merits of reinforcing the election tesult, I dont see how it can be effective in practice, although obviously some nations have cracked it.

It is strange that in a country where the right to vote is such a hard earned thing, albeit not as hard earned as in other countries, at least 30% of those eligible to vote dont bother (and way more in local elections). The suffragettes must be rolling around in their graves.

If you dont vote you lose the right to complain about the outcome.

[swaledale]

Swaledale can't you see you are destroying your own arguments with a reply like that.

I wasn't advancing any arguments, i was expressing my frustration at posters who don't read posts or the context in which they are made!

Yes Angry, the generalisation that people who go to university know **** al about the world is about as true as saying those who are 50 plus and never have know what their talking about ignorance on all sides is true. The younger generation do though ahve a more liberal attitude to nation states than the older generation and some of what they say is true it will make it more difficult to work or do business within europe those few forms become expensive time consuming paperwork for individuals and busineses alike.

I still have yet to hear a coherent argument as to why leaving the Eu is better than staying in - no doubt IF the economy crashes people will be explaining how this economic pain is worth it! Trouble is it will be those I described who were on TV celebrating the Brexit who will suffer most... but then why should I give a ****? I'm alright jack!

[Trickytreesreds]

+3

[ramAnag]

The right to 'spoil' your paper should be part of the democratic process, imo, Roger. That's one of the reasons that I query the level of 'democracy' involved in the referendum...those that genuinely and maybe wisely believed they did not know enough to vote are now just labelled as 'not bothered'. That's not necessarily the case.
Surely though if we're going to set so much store by democracy meaning 'one man one vote and all votes are equal' then we must get as close as possible to everyone voting even if that includes an 'abstention' vote. Whatever the disadvantages it has to be more democratic than victory being claimed by just 37% of the electorate.
Can it really be that hard? In an age where everything from personal banking, to flight and football/theatre ticket booking is done via the Internet is the concept of polling stations not unecessarily cumbersome and outdated and can we not find a better alternative which makes voting more convenient and thus hopefully more 'representative'?

[AngryRam]

I wasn't advancing any arguments, i was expressing my frustration at posters who don't read posts or the context in which they are made!

Yes Angry, the generalisation that people who go to university know **** al about the world is about as true as saying those who are 50 plus and never have know what their talking about ignorance on all sides is true. The younger generation do though ahve a more liberal attitude to nation states than the older generation and some of what they say is true it will make it more difficult to work or do business within europe those few forms become expensive time consuming paperwork for individuals and busineses alike.

I still have yet to hear a coherent argument as to why leaving the Eu is better than staying in - no doubt IF the economy crashes people will be explaining how this economic pain is worth it! Trouble is it will be those I described who were on TV celebrating the Brexit who will suffer most... but then why should I give a ****? I'm alright jack!

Don't take this the wrong way Swaley.. I don't know you, have never met you but you seem an intelligent fella. But when you say you are yet to hear a coherent argument.. IMO you don't seem to be that receptive to listening.
Agree the youth are a lot less nationalistic than this old git.. Maybe that is a good thing.
Filling in a few forms albeit time consuming should not put people off if they want something enough.. If it does then they are probably doing the wrong thing anyway. The general point is that the world has not stopped spinning, opportunities are there, they just need to be taken. They maybe slightly different than a year ago but still there.

[roger_ramjet]

Im not convinced you could use on line voting systems without compromising the integrity of the secret ballot. Sure you could replace the pencil and paper with a computer screen at a polling station but you would still need to confirm your identity and right to vote seperately in a non linked manner. Sure as hell couldnt use your phone anonymously.

Anyway where would the fun be if 10 minutes after the polls closed the results were known across the country. Sunderland would cease to have any relevance.

[Trickytreesreds]

Firstly i wasnt targetting alleged racists, i was commenting on those who voted Brexit without having a ****ing clue why! That was ina response to respecting the vote and someones opinion, my response was why the **** woudl i respect someones opinion that wasn't based on any fact or indeed on anything other than they were protesting against being poor and put upon, which is fine but they kind of got the wrong thing to vote against.

How is commenting on the sheer ignorance of some of those who voted political snobbery anymore than commenting on the mindless England fans behaviour some form of snobbery? Nowhere did i say they shouldn't be allowed to vote, I was observing why they voted - they clearly hadnt got a clue why they voted, because they could not explain why, they expressed happiness that we would be leaving the EU, but could not say why or how that would improve their lives - sorry Rog you have not only got the wrong end of the stick but seem to think passing judgement on the basis of how people behave and their views is some form of crime - all i said was IF they thought voting for Brexit would mean a reduction of the number of immigrants where they lived or that there would be millions more spent on the NHS, which is a common theme amongst many who voted for Brexit, then their perspective is rather skewed.

And the same argument back at you,
Those who voted remain and not having a ****ing clue why, except they were told Europe would-
burst into war
3 million would be made jobless
1.5 million Brits in Europe would be booted home
no one would trade with us
idiotic youngsters, thinking their best mate would be deported/they couldn't travel abroad/we're all racists

Yes Cameron and Osbourn did a sterling on some of you remainers.
For the record, I voted leave based on one fact alone.
I don't want either me or my family, wrapped up in one superstate and governed by an unelected committee.
Dress it up all you like, that was and IS still the plan.

Bit more respect and understanding wouldn't go amiss from all you dummy spitters.
The gate swings both ways, some quit on lack of facts, but remain had a very good brain washing job done on them

It's over now, get over it and lets move on doing what we do best.

[ramAnag]

Im not convinced you could use on line voting systems without compromising the integrity of the secret ballot. Sure you could replace the pencil and paper with a computer screen at a polling station but you would still need to confirm your identity and right to vote seperately in a non linked manner. Sure as hell couldnt use your phone anonymously.

Anyway where would the fun be if 10 minutes after the polls closed the results were known across the country. Sunderland would cease to have any relevance.

Is it, strictly speaking, a secret ballot RR? Secret at the point of voting but each paper has a reference number on it...sure they wouldn't be so hard to trace back for anyone so inclined. Far more important to me that my banking details remain safe and secure than someone knows which way I vote anyway, but if they can make all the current online transactions secure then would the integrity of an 'online' vote be any harder to secure?

[Manofpride]

The remain folk are bitter because they lost the vote, the Brexits happy because they won it. This debate wont get resolved because Remain voters won't accept the Brexits and vice versa. Farage tells it how it is and that's why the Country got behind him to push him over the winning line. Like he said, 20 years ago people were laughing at him, but they're not laughing now!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

The remain folk are bitter because they lost the vote, the Brexits happy because they won it. This debate wont get resolved because Remain voters won't accept the Brexits and vice versa. Farage tells it how it is and that's why the Country got behind him to push him over the winning line. Like he said, 20 years ago people were laughing at him, but they're not laughing now!!!

Like 4 MOP.

Everything he said would happen, has and is coming true
The super state plan- flag/anthem/law/currency/policy/politburo
The EU army plan
The flooding of migrants
The expansion of the empire into ever widening regions

The fact that UKIP grabbed 28% of the EMP elections showed the way opinion was forming. That was down to Farage telling folks what was going on, at a time secrecy ruled.

[roger_ramjet]

Is it, strictly speaking, a secret ballot RR? Secret at the point of voting but each paper has a reference number on it...sure they wouldn't be so hard to trace back for anyone so inclined. Far more important to me that my banking details remain safe and secure than someone knows which way I vote anyway, but if they can make all the current online transactions secure then would the integrity of an 'online' vote be any harder to secure?

Fraudsters can only do limited damage to your bank and the bank usually foot the bill. Big brother knowing your voting habits seems way more dangerous to me -especially if you vote at the extremes of the political spectrum.

[ramAnag]

The remain folk are bitter because they lost the vote, the Brexits happy because they won it. This debate wont get resolved because Remain voters won't accept the Brexits and vice versa. Farage tells it how it is and that's why the Country got behind him to push him over the winning line. Like he said, 20 years ago people were laughing at him, but they're not laughing now!!!

Personally I don't feel I'm 'bitter' MoP...I question the wisdom of the use and outcome of the referendum but that seems reasonable not bitter. Should we all just 'give up' when things don't go our way?
I do accept that more voted for Brexit than Remain but I still struggle with the concept of being led in one direction by just over one third of the electorate and have yet to have it explained to me how that is 'democratic'.

As for Farage telling it 'how it is' and that's why 'the country got behind him', that, imo, is untrue. Farage gave us a paranoid, version of what he believes is happening to the UK and some 'swallowed' it. 'He' wasn't 'pushed over the winning line' anymore than Gove, Johnson and IDS and if 'the country' is so much behind him how come he has never managed to get himself elected as an MP?
With regard to people 'laughing at him', his speech on that issue to the European Parliament was one of the most arrogant and distasteful I've ever heard. I've certainly never laughed at him...but then divisiveness, bitterness and negativity is rarely funny to me.