OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Like

Liked myself, which is exactly as I've been saying.

People are focused on the here and now.
They forget, we've been WORSE OFF, in the past in the EU.
THEY DON'T KNOW THE FUTURE EITHER, as all the doom lies have failed yet. Oh AND YOU MISSED ONE WHOPPER.

The extra £5500 a year it will cost every household, according to Cameron/Osborn. Those two should be shot, for their deceit.
Even Sewerbry mouth MP, has now admitted the IN campaign told to many whoppers and didn't deal with the main issue. Migration.
That was from someone who was so pro -IN she cried like a baby at the result.
My point about the EU was, they are disjointed. It isn't a union of love anymore.
Denmark/Holland/Sweden are the next sparks- they don't like the way the EU has gone
Hungary/Poland/Czechoslovakia/ will continue to rock the boat border wise by blocking immigrants etc
Greece/Portugal/Italy are economic time bombs- that will cost everyone a lot of money eventually
East Europe will continue to leech the coffers, they won't have our inflated purse anymore.

So despite all the leaning and threats from the **** Obama/IMF/Junkers cronies It is still a failed experiment that every now sees.
Believe what you want Ramanag, I'm confident in the average Brits resolve. I am glad this gravy train of money is stopping.

BTW, I do hope we are pushing for the billions rebate we are owed, for our share of EU assets. Property/land etc, they we helped buy/build over the last 40 odd years.

[Andy_Faber]

In amongst TTRs rants there lurks the key 'battleground' for the future of the EU - between the idealists and the pragmatists. The idealists, the old guard of EU bureaucrats, Germany, France, Sweden, Belgium etc still believe in the EU as an idealistic solution - I've said before it is a means to itself but I don't really mean that, I mean they believe in the Superstate, with constituent countries reduced in relevance to the level of what we know as counties. Whereas the pragmatists, notably the later adopters such as Poland, Hungary, Rumania, very much viewed membership as a 'meal ticket' (and fair go to them), with the benefit of an increase in domestic wealth for families where a family member chose to work elsewhere in EU (ie UK) and 'repatriate the cash'. Now the pragmatists are threatened with being 'stung' pretty much the same way, by the threat, perceived or otherwise, from non-European 'refugees' (and the speech marks there are deliberate, check out today's news about the ISIS sleeper cells in Germany), and of course as that's not what they signed up for, they are increasingly a) kicking off at the Idealists and b) reverting back to the idea of 'nation first-EU second'.

[ramAnag]

Sorry Tricky but that's about as 'one eyed' as it gets. No surprise that you agree with Ram59 and that is your right, but...

1) 'Cameron/Osborn should be shot for their deceit'. Complete hyperbole of course, but I have never denied that those two lied or that the 'Remain' campaign was shambolic. However if you're so critical of them for lying what the hell would you have done to Farage, Johnson, Gove and Co? Again, you can't have it both ways.

2) 'THEY DON'T KNOW THE FUTURE EITHER, as all the doom lies have failed yet.' I'll do my best with that sentence. Did you really expect the sky to fall in overnight? The process has barely begun, but the warning signs are there and when we're talking projections I've actually got more faith in the experts and the likes of AF who have described the 'sharks circling' than your conspiracy theory based projection about 'one government, one currency and one economy'.

3) 'It isn't a Union of love anymore'...has it ever been? It was born as a pragmatic trading arrangement amongst the countries of Western Europe at a time when there were fears about the maintenance of peace following WW11. I'll readily concede it has many faults and has become unecessarily over bureaucracised, but it was always going to have stronger and weaker members and your own self proclaimed 'nationalistic slip' is showing when you talk so disparagingly of other European countries.

4) As regards Obama...I never saw anything he said as a 'threat'. I took it as a warning from a well intentioned and concerned ally who also happens to be the most powerful politician in the West. A 'critical friend' if you prefer and, like it or not, our 'special' relationship with the USA is a major reason for whatever credibility we have left in the World so we might do well to take note of his comments.

Finally 'the average Brits resolve', as you put it, has little to do with how things will develop. I too have a pride in my country's achievements, although not the sort that is wrapped in a flag of nationalism and jingoism. Wanting the country to succeed is not the preserve of 'Brexiteers'...I'm sure all the 'Remainers' want to see a successful UK just as much, we simply recognise a different 'route' to that goal and being in the minority...if indeed we are...doesn't make us wrong.

[swaledale]

Sorry Tricky but that's about as 'one eyed' as it gets. No surprise that you agree with Ram59 and that is your right, but...

1) 'Cameron/Osborn should be shot for their deceit'. Complete hyperbole of course, but I have never denied that those two lied or that the 'Remain' campaign was shambolic. However if you're so critical of them for lying what the hell would you have done to Farage, Johnson, Gove and Co? Again, you can't have it both ways.

2) 'THEY DON'T KNOW THE FUTURE EITHER, as all the doom lies have failed yet.' I'll do my best with that sentence. Did you really expect the sky to fall in overnight? The process has barely begun, but the warning signs are there and when we're talking projections I've actually got more faith in the experts and the likes of AF who have described the 'sharks circling' than your conspiracy theory based projection about 'one government, one currency and one economy'.

3) 'It isn't a Union of love anymore'...has it ever been? It was born as a pragmatic trading arrangement amongst the countries of Western Europe at a time when there were fears about the maintenance of peace following WW11. I'll readily concede it has many faults and has become unecessarily over bureaucracised, but it was always going to have stronger and weaker members and your own self proclaimed 'nationalistic slip' is showing when you talk so disparagingly of other European countries.

4) As regards Obama...I never saw anything he said as a 'threat'. I took it as a warning from a well intentioned and concerned ally who also happens to be the most powerful politician in the West. A 'critical friend' if you prefer and, like it or not, our 'special' relationship with the USA is a major reason for whatever credibility we have left in the World so we might do well to take note of his comments.

Finally 'the average Brits resolve', as you put it, has little to do with how things will develop. I too have a pride in my country's achievements, although not the sort that is wrapped in a flag of nationalism and jingoism. Wanting the country to succeed is not the preserve of 'Brexiteers'...I'm sure all the 'Remainers' want to see a successful UK just as much, we simply recognise a different 'route' to that goal and being in the minority...if indeed we are...doesn't make us wrong.

Fair play to you for trying to debate reasonably with a xenophobic, nationalistic fantasist, but to be honest its about as pointless as a Jehovah's Witness trying to convert a member of ISIS!

Tricky long ago surrendered any credibility his contribution to this debate with his inaccurate one sided spiel its just laughable that any sane person can actually believe the bilge he posts.

I note an element of the accusation that if you believe it was better to remain in the EU then one is not proud of the UK creeping in, which is utter nonsense. Its just as good an assumption if in IMO a more plausible one that staying in would have been in the UK's interests.

Finally Angry so you haven't noticed being better off due to the UK being in the EU? Well as has been said we are the 5th largest economy by GDP and that's with being an EU member for 40 years, so clearly it hasn't done us that much harm. maybe the question people should ask is will you be better off economically when we leave - of course nobody knows the answer but I'd say the signs at the moment aren't encouraging...maybe when companies have shifted their factories across to the EU and are UK earnings through financial services have dwindled, it may seem that it wasn't such a good idea?

Of course the vision and hope that we will prosper may come true, or we may simply end up with a deal that provides acess to the single market along with the conditions that Norway and Switzerland have agreed to, which would seem to me to be pretty much EU lite, but without any influence over how its shaped?

Or maybe Tricky's apparent wish for a Europe wide revolution will happen, be careful what you wish for!

[AngryRam]

Tricky long ago surrendered any credibility his contribution to this debate with his inaccurate one sided spiel its just laughable that any sane person can actually believe the bilge he posts.

See this is where you lose credibility Swaley.. TTR and other have an opinion.. Okay we know you don't agree but then you start with your superior than thow, he's xenophobic, nationalistic fantasist crap.. You just make yourself look like a right tool.
I might be wrong but Tricky has always answered your posts honestly and I dont remeber him trying to belittle you for your opinion. Again, I ain't reading all these posts again to make sure but it has not been my impression. I stand to be corrected if he has.

What exactly is wrong with being nationalistic? The word xenophobia is used all too quickly, just like shouting racist.. People do it just to gain some sort of moral superiority.

[AngryRam]

Finally Angry so you haven't noticed being better off due to the UK being in the EU? Well as has been said we are the 5th largest economy by GDP and that's with being an EU member for 40 years, so clearly it hasn't done us that much harm. maybe the question people should ask is will you be better off economically when we leave - of course nobody knows the answer but I'd say the signs at the moment aren't encouraging...maybe when companies have shifted their factories across to the EU and are UK earnings through financial services have dwindled, it may seem that it wasn't such a good idea?

I dont remeber saying exactly that.. It is hard to argue that we have not gained from being part of the Economic Community but that is not where Europe is going.
Anyway before that we were an EMPIRE and we ruled the bleedin world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AQ-D_OnF-E

[swaledale]

I dont remeber saying exactly that.. It is hard to argue that we have not gained from being part of the Economic Community but that is not where Europe is going.
Anyway before that we were an EMPIRE and we ruled the bleedin world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AQ-D_OnF-E

Angry there are so many of Tricky's posts that are clearly way off beam - just do run through this thread and if that's the views of a sane balanced person debating than I'm clearly living on another planet!

Others on here have expressed honest opinions, which can be challenged or debated but they are just that opinions - Tricky just does not do that and the more one posts responses back, the more extreme and outlandish his views become, whilst repeating inaccuracies which I and indeed Anagram have corrected many times!

You posted I'm not rolling in cash to paraphrase as a result of being in the EU a couple of posts back.

[AngryRam]

Angry there are so many of Tricky's posts that are clearly way off beam - just do run through this thread and if that's the views of a sane balanced person debating than I'm clearly living on another planet!

Others on here have expressed honest opinions, which can be challenged or debated but they are just that opinions - Tricky just does not do that and the more one posts responses back, the more extreme and outlandish his views become, whilst repeating inaccuracies which I and indeed Anagram have corrected many times!

You posted I'm not rolling in cash to paraphrase as a result of being in the EU a couple of posts back.

Okay I remember now but that was a slightly sarcastic comment by me to all the posts trying to make us believe we were living in somesort of winter wonderland.

In Tricky defence and he does not need me, I can't remember him calling you derogatory names.
Just sayin like.

[ramAnag]

I dont remeber saying exactly that.. It is hard to argue that we have not gained from being part of the Economic Community but that is not where Europe is going.
Anyway before that we were an EMPIRE and we ruled the bleedin world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AQ-D_OnF-E

Got a lot of time for your comments and posts Angry, so take it that final comment and the link are 'tongue in cheek', 'cos anyone who has to resort to talk of the 'days of Empire' and 'Land of Hope and Glory' has truly lost the plot.

Interesting that you concede that we have gained from membership of the EU but are concerned about where it is 'going'. I would have thought that there are two very good reasons for remaining in it and changing the direction. Not like you to run away.

[AngryRam]

Got a lot of time for your comments and posts Angry, so take it that final comment and the link are 'tongue in cheek', 'cos anyone who has to resort to talk of the 'days of Empire' and 'Land of Hope and Glory' has truly lost the plot.

Interesting that you concede that we have gained from membership of the EU but are concerned about where it is 'going'. I would have thought that there are two very good reasons for remaining in it and changing the direction. Not like you to run away.

Like I have said on many occasions, there was always positives and negatives on both causes.. I mentioned EC, not EU.. I like the economic community bit but don't like the union bit. I am sorry but I am more aligned to Tricky's view than yourself and Swaley..
I simply won't accept us being a part of a union ruled by unelected goons... I am British and a proud Brit, I would never describe myself as a European.

[ramAnag]

'More aligned to Tricky's view than yourself and Swaley'. Really? Never have guessed.
No problem with that...I too am proud of some British achievements/achievers - from the NHS to the British Lions, the Beatles to William Shakespeare - but I don't have any difficulty with reconciling the idea of being both British and European.
What I do find odd is that you have such difficulty with the concept of being ruled by 'unelected (European) goons' - and I do have sympathy with that view - but don't appear to have the same qualms about being ruled by a bunch of home grown privately educated prats who still harbour school days grudges and have never done an honest day's work in their lives.

[AngryRam]

Lesser of two evils... At least We can unelect our goons.

[Trickytreesreds]

Got a lot of time for your comments and posts Angry, so take it that final comment and the link are 'tongue in cheek', 'cos anyone who has to resort to talk of the 'days of Empire' and 'Land of Hope and Glory' has truly lost the plot.

Interesting that you concede that we have gained from membership of the EU but are concerned about where it is 'going'. I would have thought that there are two very good reasons for remaining in it and changing the direction. Not like you to run away.

Ramanag, if I may I'd like to challenge that.
The UK gave up on Empire building after WW1. It was stripped slowly over the next 50 years.
At the current moment in time, only one group is Empire building and that is the EU.
It is currently playing a dangerous game, flirting with Putins borders and the Middle East.
True or false. No games a y/n answer will do.

[Ram59]

It would be nice to think that by staying in the eu, we could change things. But in reality, the eu is a supertanker set on a course which would need a major event to change direction, maybe brexit, who knows.

Let's face it, Britain is 1 of 28 countries, of which 19 are also in the Euro zone. To think that we'll ever be in a position to change things, is fanciful. Our political position within the eu was very weak, even before the referendum.

[ramAnag]

Ramanag, if I may I'd like to challenge that.
The UK gave up on Empire building after WW1. It was stripped slowly over the next 50 years.
At the current moment in time, only one group is Empire building and that is the EU.
It is currently playing a dangerous game, flirting with Putins borders and the Middle East.
True or false. No games a y/n answer will do.

False.