OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Why is it totally irrelevant and how am I 'clutching at straws' then mista?
Isn't this the gospel according to Brexit? Obama speaks out about Brexit = Bad. Trump speaks out about Brexit = Good. Brexit stands for the sovereignty of Parliament = Good. The Courts defend the sovereignty of Parliament in having some input into the terms of Brexit = Bad. Remainers argue against Brexit = Bad. Brexiteers suggest taking to the streets to protest against the High Court decision = Good. Remainers criticise the Brexit decision = 'bunch of moaners'. The far right, including some Brexiteers, mock Jo Cox's 'successor' and frighten Gina Miller's family = 'well these things happen'.
If you can't see the double standards and hypocrisy in that little lot then I fear you must be the 'straw clutcher'.

[ramspride]

Like him or loathe him, Farage set out to achieve one massive goal many years ago, and he's achieved it. IMO he managed to do the opposite of what you say, he managed to attach a groundswell of dissatisfaction to his cause, to meet the ends he sought. Such mobilisation of the populace is what all politicians seek, he's just better at it than most.

Well said Andy

[ramspride]

Oh dear it looks like we've swapped one project fear Chancellor to another. Hammond says because of Brexit this country will be trillions worse off in a few years time. That's assuming that we don't do any trade with the EU or any other country in the world. Oh he missed that bit out. The B(EU)BC also said that the country will loose millions from taxes that immigrants, who work here, currently pay. Assuming I take it that the jobs that they currently do are not taken by any people in this country. The end is nigh.

[swaledale]

Oh dear it looks like we've swapped one project fear Chancellor to another. Hammond says because of Brexit this country will be trillions worse off in a few years time. That's assuming that we don't do any trade with the EU or any other country in the world. Oh he missed that bit out. The B(EU)BC also said that the country will loose millions from taxes that immigrants, who work here, currently pay. Assuming I take it that the jobs that they currently do are not taken by any people in this country. The end is nigh.

The economics are simple, falling pound equals higher costs equals slow down in growth, whether it will be as bad as forecast is open to question but all the economic indicators are poor at the moment, so he is being cautious.

Who knows what the terms of trade with the Eu will be, but what is a fact is e won't be replacing our trade with the Eu by trade with other countries in the medium term, I'm struggling to think what we sell which other countries want for a start!

If there were the people available in this country to take the jobs that will be left vacant if we dont have immigrants we would not have needed the in the first place would we? Where are all these willing Uk citizens deprived of jobs by Eu migrants? because over the last 10 years I've encountered precious few or perhaps they don't apply for jobs because they know the migrants will get employed and they wont? Or maybe there isn't they aren't there?

Is the end nigh? No but this country has scored a massive economic own goal with Brexit and that will hit the very people who voted for it, as they will find out over the next few years, its simple economics which seems to evade most people.

[swaledale]

Why is it totally irrelevant and how am I 'clutching at straws' then mista?
Isn't this the gospel according to Brexit? Obama speaks out about Brexit = Bad. Trump speaks out about Brexit = Good. Brexit stands for the sovereignty of Parliament = Good. The Courts defend the sovereignty of Parliament in having some input into the terms of Brexit = Bad. Remainers argue against Brexit = Bad. Brexiteers suggest taking to the streets to protest against the High Court decision = Good. Remainers criticise the Brexit decision = 'bunch of moaners'. The far right, including some Brexiteers, mock Jo Cox's 'successor' and frighten Gina Miller's family = 'well these things happen'.
If you can't see the double standards and hypocrisy in that little lot then I fear you must be the 'straw clutcher'.

A large LIKE, but of course they don't see the hypocrisy, in fact they dont see the facts at all!

[swaledale]

ramAnag. Totally irrelevant there is no vacancy bet your hands are aching clutching all those straws 😄😄

No my heads aching at the inability of people to understand reality, still wait a few years and IF we do a hard Brexit (which I don't believe we will, it would be economic suicide) then reality will smack people hard in the face!

[Ram59]

Nobody can say it will be an economic success or disaster, because there has been no negotiation yet.

Is there anyone on here who is that confident that they will be proved right in ten years time that they will give their house to charity, if proved wrong?

[Andy_Faber]

The economics are simple, falling pound equals higher costs .

I think this sums up the soothesaying remoaner viewpoint that the UK would be much better without.

1. Comparing yesterday's £/Euro rate (1.18 ish) with a week before the vote (1.23 ish), that's a 4.2% difference, and in any normal five month period that would be no great cause for concern , basically 'lost in the rounding' for industry, especially that part of industry that hedges its Foreign Currency

2. In the last 22 days the rate has gone up 7%

3. Looking historically, on August 1st 2013 the rate was 1.14, 3% worse than it is now, and I don't recall anyone panicking then, OR blaming it on BEING in the EU

Lets pop the odd fact into the mix occasionally

And remember, I voted Remain

[Andy_Faber]

Mind you millions of germans thought Hitler had the answer to their problems so one can't be surprised I suppose!

I keep hearing this comparison too (not just from you) and I think its both distasteful and a bit desperate.

[ramAnag]

I keep hearing this comparison too (not just from you) and I think its both distasteful and a bit desperate.

I honestly would have agreed with your views on such a comparison until recently Andy but things have changed over the last few weeks and months. I think we are both reasonable men, you further to the right and me further to the left of centre, but ultimately both 'reasonable'. Unfortunately some of the post Brexit behaviour and, more disturbingly, what has been said by Trump and his supporters suggests the comparison may no longer be quite so far fetched.

[Andy_Faber]

I honestly would have agreed with your views on such a comparison until recently Andy but things have changed over the last few weeks and months. I think we are both reasonable men, you further to the right and me further to the left of centre, but ultimately both 'reasonable'. Unfortunately some of the post Brexit behaviour and, more disturbingly, what has been said by Trump and his supporters suggests the comparison may no longer be quite so far fetched.

If we (the country as a whole not just this forum) are going to have a sensible discussion/argument, I think there are more appropriate 'lessons from history' than the one quoted by Swale, the 'Hitler' card gets pulled too much just like the 'Race' card does, it gets in the way of constructive debate. Not to say that I can't see some disturbing trends, especially extremists emboldened by some of Donald Trump's utterances - and I maintain that Nigel Farage is NOT in the same league as Trump on rabble-rousing

[swaledale]

If we (the country as a whole not just this forum) are going to have a sensible discussion/argument, I think there are more appropriate 'lessons from history' than the one quoted by Swale, the 'Hitler' card gets pulled too much just like the 'Race' card does, it gets in the way of constructive debate. Not to say that I can't see some disturbing trends, especially extremists emboldened by some of Donald Trump's utterances - and I maintain that Nigel Farage is NOT in the same league as Trump on rabble-rousing

And yet yesterday a far right obsessive was jailed for life for murdering an MP? Not saying thats down to Farage but its indicative of what gets set off when such agenda are promoted by seemingly respectable people?

The neo fascist views that have been promoted by some media and some people are very disturbing and there clearly is a section of the population who think that they have been prevented from saying what they think because of so called political correctness and are emboldened by farage's actions and words.

How is pointing out what happened in an economically depressed germany when Hitler used the justified grievances of the german people by stirring up nationalistic (poor down trodden germany) and anti foreigner sentiment not parallel to some of whats gone on in the UK?

Playing the Hitler card, the race card , i suppose playing the gay card, the disabled card or possibly the woman card also gets in the way of constructive debate? In my experience what that means is certain truths are uncomfortable to people who wouldprefer to ignore that certain things are unaccceptable in a civlised society and that to ignore them threatens that society - of course there will be people who use certain things for their own ends, just as I am sure there are assylum seekers and immigrants who are criminals, but that is no more true than of the "native" Uk population many of whom any sane person would want to remove from society.

What Hitler did is a salutory lesson that should not be forgotten, its one of the reasons the EU was created.

[roger_ramjet]

And yet yesterday a far right obsessive was jailed for life for murdering an MP? Not saying thats down to Farage but its indicative of what gets set off when such agenda are promoted by seemingly respectable people?

The neo fascist views that have been promoted by some media and some people are very disturbing and there clearly is a section of the population who think that they have been prevented from saying what they think because of so called political correctness and are emboldened by farage's actions and words.

How is pointing out what happened in an economically depressed germany when Hitler used the justified grievances of the german people by stirring up nationalistic (poor down trodden germany) and anti foreigner sentiment not parallel to some of whats gone on in the UK?

Playing the Hitler card, the race card , i suppose playing the gay card, the disabled card or possibly the woman card also gets in the way of constructive debate? In my experience what that means is certain truths are uncomfortable to people who wouldprefer to ignore that certain things are unaccceptable in a civlised society and that to ignore them threatens that society - of course there will be people who use certain things for their own ends, just as I am sure there are assylum seekers and immigrants who are criminals, but that is no more true than of the "native" Uk population many of whom any sane person would want to remove from society.

What Hitler did is a salutory lesson that should not be forgotten, its one of the reasons the EU was created.

Hmmm so Hitler was one of the architects of the EU. Indirectly of course, but curiously accurate in that statement Swale.

I say curiously since both Hitler and the EU had/have the same objectives. A united Europe with one army dominated by the Germans. Admittedly the methodologies whereby this is to be achieved differ slightly.

"Who do you think you are kidding Mrs Merkel......"

[roger_ramjet]

The economics are simple, falling pound equals higher costs equals slow down in growth, whether it will be as bad as forecast is open to question but all the economic indicators are poor at the moment, so he is being cautious.

In that statement you have shown that it is you that are simple, not the economics. Sure your point is valid but it is but one small component of the economic impact - selected to make your point, not to analyse the macro impact. Falling pound equals more competitive exports equals better growth and both visible and invisible earnings. An equally valid observation to make the "outers" case. Neither observation in isolation means anything.

Who knows what the terms of trade with the Eu will be, but what is a fact is e won't be replacing our trade with the Eu by trade with other countries in the medium term, I'm struggling to think what we sell which other countries want for a start!

Lets start with financial services (banking and insurance) and tourism. Probably weapons! Pharmaceuticals I think... but you are right in that we dont make/export much in the way of B2C products, predominantly because our unit labour costs are higher than in other "less developed" economies.

If there were the people available in this country to take the jobs that will be left vacant if we dont have immigrants we would not have needed the in the first place would we? Where are all these willing Uk citizens deprived of jobs by Eu migrants? because over the last 10 years I've encountered precious few or perhaps they don't apply for jobs because they know the migrants will get employed and they wont? Or maybe there isn't they aren't there?

Fair point and post brexit we will still need a lot of these self same immigrant workers who have the skills that our own indolent workforce do not possess - either under trained or over trained, but let down by a succession of governmental education policies which have failed repeatedly to shape our work force in the correct way to match needs in the economy. Add to this the almost institutionalised lack of incentivisation to work caused by a molly coddling benefits system (give us more JAMs!!) means that we have a domestic workforce that either will not or cannot fill the job vacancies created in our home economy.

So we have to rely on imported labour who will work cheaper and harder by and large. HOWEVER we need to ability to regulate the rate of importation of labour to avoid benefits tourism and to avoid stresses on our healthcare and educational infrastructures. ironic really that our healthcare and care systems rely so much on the self same imported labour that is stressing it!

Since the 1940's we have always been an importer of labour (since the Windrush brought Caribbean labour to fill the gaps left by war casualties) and our indigenous work force have not "manned up" to fill this void once birth rates and the rise of women in the workforce made the importation less critical. Consequently we have a permanent need for imported labour that could and should have been resolved in the 60's and 70's. Brexit will not remove the need all of a sudden, but it may restore a degree of control to the UK over the labour importation process.[COLOR="#000000"]

Is the end nigh? No but this country has scored a massive economic own goal with Brexit and that will hit the very people who voted for it, as they will find out over the next few years, its simple economics which seems to evade most people.

Agree 100%. Whether one agrees with the decision or one does not, it is self evident that the biggest short to medium term losers from Brexit (and there will be a dip before, hopefully, our economy blossoms in the longer term are those very ones that were most keen to support it. Sadly most of them dont get the irony therein. Turkeys do sometimes vote for Christmas,

Thats all

[mistaram]

anagRam. "Straw clutching " Yes that's what it looks like when you come on here at the slightest bit of news that you think will helpyour preferences Obama there were many remainers who thought he was wrong to interfere with another countries.Democratic process especially as he wouldn't be in office when Brexit happens Gina Millar anyone with half a brain knows why she has taken it to court If you think its for the good of the country you must be very naive Ive just been through yours and Swales posts again you mentioned the democracy 68 times Well we've had a Democratic vote and you either except it or you don't Please don't come back with the figures about howclose itwasweve been there enough times Agree with you it doesn't seem fair but life's like that I don't like an unelected Royal family an unelected PM an unelected House of Lords and definitely not 3 unelected judges Let's hope we can get back to football