OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Possible spanner in the works #1??

Just seen on the Dutch news that, at the EU summit this coming weekend, the Spanish are going to be pushing their fellow EU governments to have Gibraltar reverting to be Spanish as a condition.

90 odd % of Gibraltarians want to remain British. Long live democracy.

It would appear that, when push comes to shove, old-style national interests prevail across the world. The Spaniards are great at working the EU mechanism, to quote my pal Jose 'We are European (EU) when it suits us, and Spanish when it suits us'

[ramAnag]

She's approaching the last hurdle, will she get over it or fall before the finish line?

Which would you prefer, MoP?

[Geoff Parkstone]

The answer to Spain's request is simple. Allow them sovereignty over Gibraltar should the people of Gibraltar vote in favour of it, provided they recognise the sovereignty of Catalonia should the Catalan people want it. Oh and they should give Ceuta back to the Moroccans.

[ramAnag]

The answer to Spain's request is simple. Allow them sovereignty over Gibraltar should the people of Gibraltar vote in favour of it, provided they recognise the sovereignty of Catalonia should the Catalan people want it. Oh and they should give Ceuta back to the Moroccans.

You’d make a shrewd politician Parky, although tbf...I think Ceuta is about ten miles from the Spanish mainland whereas Gibraltar is part of it, geographically speaking, and is about 1500 miles from our own shores.

[Geoff Parkstone]

that's why they should give Ceuta back as its not contiguous, being part of Africa

[Andy_Faber]

that's why they should give Ceuta back as its not contiguous, being part of Africa

Maybe we could give them Scotland in lieu of gibraltar?

[Geoff Parkstone]

sooner be rid of Wales meself

[ramAnag]

Maybe we could give them Scotland in lieu of gibraltar?

Please!

[Andy_Faber]

Please!

You see, the first chink of light in agreement between us!

[ramAnag]

You see, the first chink of light in agreement between us!

Oh I dunno, I agree with much of what you say...it’s just that you’ve usually changed your p.o.v. by the end of the week.

[Andy_Faber]

Oh I dunno, I agree with much of what you say...it’s just that you’ve usually changed your p.o.v. by the end of the week.

I seriously don't get that, the only pov I've changed over the past few years is regarding the general public, and the distasteful way people on all sides conduct their arguments and/or respond to the sincerely held beliefs of others

[Manofpride]

Which would you prefer, MoP?

I'm already building Becher's Brook!!!

I think you already know my answer to that, The EU are taking the piss. If she stays we don't get what we voted for, she needs replacing by someone who believes in Brexit and quick.. The only good thing to happen if she does get her way is Farage will be back on the scene, hopefully to finish what he started! Are you with May, she is a remainer after all?

[ramAnag]

I'm already building Becher's Brook!!!

I think you already know my answer to that, The EU are taking the piss. If she stays we don't get what we voted for, she needs replacing by someone who believes in Brexit and quick.. The only good thing to happen if she does get her way is Farage will be back on the scene, hopefully to finish what he started! Are you with May, she is a remainer after all?

I honestly didn’t. I thought we may have found some common ground and that you were one of the more responsible Brexiteers who disliked certain aspects of the EU and voted accordingly. I genuinely thought, all those months ago, that that your ‘support’ for Farage was tongue in cheek.
I’m actually shocked that, as someone who’s obviously not daft, you want Farage ‘back on the scene’. My honest opinion is that he and his cronies have done more harm to this country than any others in living history.
I’m not...’with May’, obviously...she clearly was a ‘Remainer’ and to that extent has taken on an impossible task - albeit one she actively sought - but it is perhaps indicative of the paucity of potential leaders from within an increasingly right wing Tory Party that she seemed to represent the best option at the time.

Having said that, I’m realistic enough to recognise that there are now three options...May’s plan, a no-deal Brexit, or a second Referendum.
A ‘no-deal Brexit’ would, imo, spell the ruination of this country for the remainder of my lifetime and probably my children’s too. It is an option supported by nationalists and the deluded alone.
Although I think the use of a Referendum to resolve such complex issues is deeply flawed it would be my preferred option, but I do recognise that May’s plan might be the best way to reunite a country that is more divided than I can ever remember...that and Parky’s suggestion of it being time for a centrist emergency coalition government.

Not sure why you think the EU is ‘taking the piss’. We joined a ‘club’ and made conscious commitments to it. When you withdraw from such an organisation do you really believe that you should continue to reap the benefits of membership? Of course not, and neither would you be allowed to default on the financial commitments. Their responsibility is to their members, of which we were a valued one before all this nonsense.

If you really want an example of someone who is ‘taking the piss’ look no further than Farage himself, who has made a fortune and a career - of sorts - out of something he has set out to destroy from the off while possibly doing more damage to the well being and reputation of this country than any other single individual I can think of.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Three options? The "May plan" or "a no deal exit" are options for sure, a second referendum is not an option in itself: unless you are so presumptive as to assume that second referendum = remain! What happens if you get your wish and the vote is to leave again? What happens if it is to remain this time, but with 37% of the electorate voting remain? Talk about opening further cans of worms.

If you are going to have a referendum then it must (a) put to bed this "advisory only" element as HMG has already be advised by the people once. Politicians cannot keep seeking the public's advice until they finally get a result they want and then stop asking; (b) the referendum has to ask "do you want brexit on May's terms or not?" It cannot re-ask the question, "do you want to remain after all?" If the answer to the second referendum is "no to May", then we have to crash and burn out: which as you rightly say would be a disaster that must be avoided.

[ramAnag]

Three options? The "May plan" or "a no deal exit" are options for sure, a second referendum is not an option in itself: unless you are so presumptive as to assume that second referendum = remain! What happens if you get your wish and the vote is to leave again? What happens if it is to remain this time, but with 37% of the electorate voting remain? Talk about opening further cans of worms.

If you are going to have a referendum then it must (a) put to bed this "advisory only" element as HMG has already be advised by the people once. Politicians cannot keep seeking the public's advice until they finally get a result they want and then stop asking; (b) the referendum has to ask "do you want brexit on May's terms or not?" It cannot re-ask the question, "do you want to remain after all?" If the answer to the second referendum is "no to May", then we have to crash and burn out: which as you rightly say would be a disaster that must be avoided.

I take all your points and it would be a massive risk, but if May’s plan can’t be got through Parliament and if, as you accept, a ‘no deal’ would be catastrophic for the economy then what else are we left with?

I still don’t understand why no one has acted on the fact that so many lies were told and so many electoral laws broken in the initial Referendum, but if there is to be a second one then the choices probably have to be...
1) I support the Prime Minister’s plan for Brexit.
2) I support the idea of a ‘no deal’ immediate Brexit.
3) I reject the idea of Brexit and support full and continued membership of the EU.

Totally unsatisfactory I know, but that is the mess democracy - and the Tories - have left us in. Whether these three options should then be voted on individually or by order of preference and what would constitute a victorious ‘majority’ are further questions in need of resolution. Scary times!