OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[southernram22]

i would have voted to stay in if they had guaranteed no interferance with our laws our views etc and allowed tougher immigration laws but would it happen no . the problem is now ramanag if they decide to try and stop democracy then are 17 million not likely to stand up and say no most of england and wales said leave . tell me i am interested in your views why stay besides financial reasons ? do you want to be ruled by brussels or pushed around as a part of germanys greater europe plan .?

[ramAnag]

tbh im waiting for that as well because its political meltdown time a general election would have to be called and all confidence in any political party lost. the main problem would be that a leave party would spring up and win many seats

Interesting...but don't forget that the Parliament, which might use its all important 'sovereignty' to overturn the wishes of the 17.5m significant minority, was democratically elected. It's a conundrum.

[ramAnag]

i would have voted to stay in if they had guaranteed no interferance with our laws our views etc and allowed tougher immigration laws but would it happen no . the problem is now ramanag if they decide to try and stop democracy then are 17 million not likely to stand up and say no most of england and wales said leave . tell me i am interested in your views why stay besides financial reasons ? do you want to be ruled by brussels or pushed around as a part of germanys greater europe plan .?

Fair question...I don't want to be ruled by Brussels and I don't actually feel as if I am. I actually regard myself as both English and European and I do believe that the existence of the EU is *****ly important for the maintenance of peace throughout Europe and our security within a worldwide context. I travel a fair amount and I don't see massive evidence of the destruction of the various cultures that make up the continent of Europe. Germany, France and Spain for instance still have all their customs and idiosyncrasies intact and no one has tried - not recently anyway - to make us drive on the right, measure distance in kms or buy litres of beer in the pub. I genuinely recognise people's objections to the increased bureaucracy and the level of corruption although let's not pretend that we are corruption free in the UK...we most certainly aren't. I recognise too the problems caused by immigration and think that whole issue has been mishandled in many ways over the years and now needs addressing. Overall though I believe we will be both safer and stronger as part of the EU. I support the concept of our young people benefitting from freedom of movement and employment abroad and have been impressed by the attitudes of one particular European country to my own son who lives, works and now has a family abroad. I believe it is invariably better to try and change things from within and don't want us to become isolated and viewed as a bunch of 'island monkeys' by the rest of Europe. Short term, at least, I also believe that our possible imminent withdrawal is also the closest a country can come to committing trading and financial suicide. All the experts warned us of this and I'm always more likely to take notice of the likes of Mark Carney and even Branson, Sugar and Lewis, where financial matters are concerned, than Johnson, Gove and Farage who have, to my mind, yet to achieve anything at all of any note.

[swaledale]

i would have voted to stay in if they had guaranteed no interferance with our laws our views etc and allowed tougher immigration laws but would it happen no . the problem is now ramanag if they decide to try and stop democracy then are 17 million not likely to stand up and say no most of england and wales said leave . tell me i am interested in your views why stay besides financial reasons ? do you want to be ruled by brussels or pushed around as a part of germanys greater europe plan .?

I've seen debates on the merits or otherwise of a Derby manager degenerate into anarchy, this debate despite obvious polarised views has nor done so and long may that be the case. Theres naff all happening on the football front and this is a crucial topic.

The "interference" in our laws is what usually happens when one joins a club, mutually agreed rules (many of which we had a veto over anyway) so its a level playing field for all members who benefit. Tougher immigration laws, membership of the EU requires free movement of goods, capital and labour, the UK has benifitted from that in many ways especially economically, it was the Uk's sovereign government who failed to manage this process, they were happy to take the tax income and other economic benefits but did not plan for the services etc needed to cope.

Like it or not the reality is that EU immigration has kept this country's economy afloat and it wasn't the Eu that has left large areas of this country economically disadvantaged.

We werent "ruled" by brussels, we signed up to a mutually beneficial club and anyway the real power lies with global corporations, not individual governments and voting to leave the EU hasn't changed that one iota.

I'd rather be in an EU however imperfect, with a voice and a vote, access to the single market is important for our economy, free movement across europe for jobs and education is important to the young who may not forgive the generation who may have blighted thier future.

[swaledale]

You seem to have overlooked the fact that apart from a proportion of the Tory party and UKIP (who had 1 MP elected last time!) the other political parties were for Remain - UKIP didnt achive this referendum, Cameron gambled with the Uk's future to attempt to stamp out the eurosceptics in the Tory party, maybe they should have split and stood as a separate party on a leave ticket?

[macstheman]

The General Election was won on a vote for a Referendum. As the Election was fought mainly on immigration it would seem that the outers won the General Election for the Tories by effectively voting for a Referendum to leave the EU even though lot of the MP's they voted for probably supported membership of it. In effect 2 votes have been held on the EU both being won by the 'outers'!!

[ramAnag]

The General Election was won on a vote for a Referendum. As the Election was fought mainly on immigration it would seem that the outers won the General Election for the Tories by effectively voting for a Referendum to leave the EU even though lot of the MP's they voted for probably supported membership of it. In effect 2 votes have been held on the EU both being won by the 'outers'!!

With respect mac I don't think that's true. There were three main concerns at the last election. The economy, health and immigration. The Tories were trusted more on the economy, Labour on the NHS and UKIP on immigration. The Tories won a narrow victory, largely because the Labour vote collapsed in Scotland, and UKIP won just one seat. Other contributory factors were, imo, the perceived inadequacy of Milliband - based largely on his poor communication skills and inability to eat a bacon sandwich - and the collapse of the Liberal vote who were - a little unfairly I always felt, regarded as 'turncoats'. There is no way you can view the last election as a vote on the EU.

[macstheman]

I was deliberately being pedantic, the point being that one can argue how the current situation has been arrived at by using statistics, development of events, personal opinion, personal beliefs etc to argue an explanation of those events. Yes there were many issues as you say at the GE but I believe the one that decided that result was ultimately immigration. The anti immigration lobby felt that the Tories promise of a referendum on the EU was their best chance of addressing that issue hence the Tory win and including the effect on other parties. That led to the Referendum which was then won by the outers who were definitely wanting immigration tackled and so turned the GE result.

[roger_ramjet]

Mangara - it is interesting that you say labour were a remain party at the last election (by which I assume you mean the Parliamentary Labour Party) whereas the leave vote was largely underpinned by voters in traditionally labour voting areas. Yes there were fishermen, pensioners and an unholy right wing alliance, but in many typical labour strongholds there was a heavy leave vote.

You cannot therefore blame the leave outcome on Cameron's gamble to hold his party together as his dissidents were joined by many from other political arenas.

What is the most interesting political outcome to me is rhe clear schism between the labour party members and the parliamentary labour party. The PLP didnt want Corbyn as leader, the party did. The PLP wanted remain and the party clearly didnt. The PLP want Corbyn out by a vast majority - the party doesnt appear to want to.

What has been achieved by the referendum, aside from the obvious, is that while Tory differences have not been healed, the split between the PLP and the Labour Party has been widened. Blairite moderate reformed labour is finally being rejected by its supporters which could leave it unelectable in the immediate future as the middle band floating voters attracted by Blair politics would reject the more extreme values being espoused by the party.

If there is no effective opposition as a result of the referendum reinforcing the growing divide between the PLP and its supporters, forcing labour policy further left and so losing moderate support, what then will act as a brake on the exteemes of the Tories.

We can debate the impact of the referendum decision until the cows come home, but the greater worry to me is how our own politics will react. The collapse of any effective opposition could remove the "checks and balances" inherent in our own parliamentary democracy for many years to come, or even create new party alliances with centrist MPs of each side allying and creating two ineffective minoriry wings.

[AdiSalisbury]

mAnagra, my point is that those who voted to take the new direction had already considered the merits of attempting to fix the current (now previous) solution. There was another thread asking if those who voted out would now vote remain if given a 2nd vote - well I was all for remain when the referendum was initially called, its only after full consideration that I chose leave. Only bummer is that my hols will cost an extra few quid this year! In the long run, I believe its better to take the new path, even if a little prickly at the start.

Roger, I think it's good that the Labour divide has been brought forward, otherwise we'd have to wait for another election to truly expose it to the mainstream media. The party needs to address this in order to become an effective opposition (whether they can or not is debatable), at the moment it is all a bit toothless.

This is the most constructive debate on the subject I've seen on any social media site!

[southernram22]

respect your views swale let me tell you this i went to a seminar near me held by ian duncan smith he quite openly said that here the members of government when in meetings took packed lunches and when he visited brussels they have a large gated shopping area only allowed for use by the commision they only have to hail a cab and its paid for no questions asked etc and that the food is all paid for by us. no one else get these perks why should these bureaucrats be allowed to create this gravy train of greed ? also swale while your on about a generation thats blighted the youngs future what about past generations who gave everything they had for for europe twice do they not count. also when we joined please correct me if i am wrong but i am not we joined a ten state trading bloc not a united states of europe ? which many are now trying to lead us down . the choice is easy stay in and become a one nation no identity country ruled by arrogant non elected bureaucrats. or be a country that democratically makes its own rules and decisions rightly or wrongly for its inhabitents a country where our laws are not overturned by a court in another country ask and german citizen i have some friends there what they think about mrs merkels migrants plan and how the ***ual assults figures have risen by 500% in 6 months or who is actually bailing out greece ? i never overlooked that all the political parties were for remain it shows just one thing how completely out of touch the ruling classes and the banks buissness people are with the general people of this country swale its no good brushing others views under carpet like you have been known to do . you like many others need to open eyes listen and learn . what happens if another referendum took place and the vote was even more to leave would the remain go for a best of three from 5 . its time to see the people are fed up with all politicians whatever party they want fairness not bankers paying themselves immoral wages they dont want footballers being paid silly wages they want food on plates roofs over heads kids in proper staffed schools and an nhs that can cope . if europe gives us all this then i am wrong but swale be honest it does not offer less coruption it is a money pit .

[ramAnag]

Totally agree with virtually all you've said Roger...your point about the 'leave' vote coming from the 'labour strongholds' was what I meant when I spoke of the contradiction between the 2015 Election and the Referendum and I suspect that nowhere was this more manifest than in the English north east.

As for the rest...I don't know what to say. Given the rate that former 'Remains' are moving to 'Leave' on here Swale and I are obviously about as successful at putting our case as Johnson and Gove now appear to be at winning a leadership contest amongst their party. (At least that bit has offered some cheer.)

I agree with Adi on one thing...that it has been a largely excellent debate...and perhaps the one good thing that can come out of the Tory bitterness and Labour chaos will eventually be the emergence of a new moderate party made up of the best of what is, imo, the fairly lamentable bunch of individuals who currently occupy Parliament.

I've answered questions about why I favour Remain. In the continued absence of Cornwall and Manx, I'll ask Roger - our only remaining economic expert I think - what, in your informed opinion, does the economic future now hold if we do indeed proceed down the Brexit route?

[AngryRam]

respect your views swale let me tell you this i went to a seminar near me held by ian duncan smith he quite openly said that here the members of government when in meetings took packed lunches and when he visited brussels they have a large gated shopping area only allowed for use by the commision they only have to hail a cab and its paid for no questions asked etc and that the food is all paid for by us. no one else get these perks why should these bureaucrats be allowed to create this gravy train of greed ? also swale while your on about a generation thats blighted the youngs future what about past generations who gave everything they had for for europe twice do they not count. also when we joined please correct me if i am wrong but i am not we joined a ten state trading bloc not a united states of europe ? which many are now trying to lead us down . the choice is easy stay in and become a one nation no identity country ruled by arrogant non elected bureaucrats. or be a country that democratically makes its own rules and decisions rightly or wrongly for its inhabitents a country where our laws are not overturned by a court in another country ask and german citizen i have some friends there what they think about mrs merkels migrants plan and how the ***ual assults figures have risen by 500% in 6 months or who is actually bailing out greece ? i never overlooked that all the political parties were for remain it shows just one thing how completely out of touch the ruling classes and the banks buissness people are with the general people of this country swale its no good brushing others views under carpet like you have been known to do . you like many others need to open eyes listen and learn . what happens if another referendum took place and the vote was even more to leave would the remain go for a best of three from 5 . its time to see the people are fed up with all politicians whatever party they want fairness not bankers paying themselves immoral wages they dont want footballers being paid silly wages they want food on plates roofs over heads kids in proper staffed schools and an nhs that can cope . if europe gives us all this then i am wrong but swale be honest it does not offer less coruption it is a money pit .

I doff my hat sir..

[AngryRam]

Totally agree with virtually all you've said Roger...your point about the 'leave' vote coming from the 'labour strongholds' was what I meant when I spoke of the contradiction between the 2015 Election and the Referendum and I suspect that nowhere was this more manifest than in the English north east.

As for the rest...I don't know what to say. Given the rate that former 'Remains' are moving to 'Leave' on here Swale and I are obviously about as successful at putting our case as Johnson and Gove now appear to be at winning a leadership contest amongst their party. (At least that bit has offered some cheer.)

I agree with Adi on one thing...that it has been a largely excellent debate...and perhaps the one good thing that can come out of the Tory bitterness and Labour chaos will eventually be the emergence of a new moderate party made up of the best of what is, imo, the fairly lamentable bunch of individuals who currently occupy Parliament.

I've answered questions about why I favour Remain. In the continued absence of Cornwall and Manx, I'll ask Roger - our only remaining economic expert I think - what, in your informed opinion, does the economic future now hold if we do indeed proceed down the Brexit route?

Both yourself and Swaley had put your points across well, it's a shame that nothing you guys have posted even now would have changed my decision. I think this thread shows just how many people were there to be convinced one way or the other.. It also shows just how many of the leavers on here thought about the many facets of this decision and made a considered choice.. I was desperate to find more reasons to stay.. I said all along that nobody could not have pros and cons on either side when making that decision. Perhaps those who voted remain will understand that now and maybe are large portion of that 17 mil did vote after lots of thought.
It also shows and has shown what a mess our political system is in.. Smarmy MPs bleating about listening after every election and then just reverting to type and ignoring the masses. Hopefully one positive for our cousins in the EU is that a message has been sent, loud and clear and the remaining members get a better deal.

[mistaram]

Ramanag You could not be more wrong blaming brexit on Labour strongholds funny how Leicester Manchester Liverpool and even Newcastle all voted remain What you are failing to see that without London and Scotland remain would have been annihilated You can hardly describe Seven Cornwall Somerset or East Anglia as Labour strongholds could you